Beyond the Ban—A Call for Sensible Regulation in South Carolina’s Hemp Industry
South Carolina Better Wellness Alternatives (SCBWA) is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization dedicated to fostering a safer, more legitimate, and equitable environment for hemp and cannabis wellness alternatives in the state1. Our core mission is to elevate the South Carolina hemp ecosystem through three foundational principles: Education, Certification, and Advocacy for sensible, balanced legislation. We believe that safe access to alternative therapies, paired with rigorous oversight, is vital for community well-being.
The Critical Need for Legislative Clarity
The rapidly growing market for hemp-derived consumables in South Carolina currently operates in a regulatory vacuum, creating a major public safety issue. This environment fosters the proliferation of unlabeled, high-potency products, with no clear age restrictions, making them dangerously accessible to minors.
This article provides a summary and transcript of the South Carolina Senate Agriculture and Natural Resources Committee meeting held on November 10, 2025, regarding Bill H. 392466. This pivotal discussion highlights the urgent need to move beyond the status quo and establish a defined legal framework for these products.
A complete video of the proceedings and testimony is available at https://www.scstatehouse.gov/video/archives.php?key=15598&part=1
SCBWA’s Position: Regulate to Protect, Not Prohibit to Fail
The testimony presented to the Senate Subcommittee clearly outlines the choice before South Carolina legislators: an ineffective total ban or comprehensive, enforceable regulation. SCBWA strongly asserts that a total ban will only push the now-$500 million industry and its consumer base to the unregulated black market and out-of-state mail order channels, ultimately compromising public safety.
We advocate for the immediate adoption of comprehensive regulations, encompassing the following essential public safety and consumer protection measures:
- Mandatory Age-Gating: An immediate and strictly enforced 21+ age limit for the sale of all intoxicating hemp-derived products.
- Product Safety Standards: Mandatory third-party testing with Certificates of Analysis (COAs) to verify potency and screen for contaminants.
- Licensing and Accountability: A robust state-level licensing system for manufacturers, distributors, and retailers, ensuring all participants in the supply chain are vetted, compliant, and accountable.
- Elimination of Bad Actors: A prohibition on marketing and packaging that appeals to children, as well as mandatory 20-and-p age-gating for all locations providing hemp products to consumers.
- Appropriate Oversight: Placing the authority for regulation and enforcement under an experienced agency, consistent with the oversight of other intoxicating products.
Conclusion
The debate captured in the following summary and transcript is a call to action. The legal hemp industry, led by responsible South Carolina businesses, stands ready to embrace regulation as a pathway to stability, legitimacy, and—most importantly—public safety. SCBWA urges the General Assembly to enact sensible legislation now, creating clear, fair, and enforceable standards to protect our children and empower adult consumers with safe, verified wellness alternatives. We remain dedicated to partnering with policymakers to ensure South Carolina secures a responsible future in this industry.
Summary of Testimony
Monday, November 10, 2025 1:00 pm Senate Agriculture and Natural Resources Subcommittee summary of the remarks, positions, and subsequent Q&A for the nine speakers who gave testimony regarding bill H. 3924, followed by a complete but flawed transcript (please use with the video for clarity):
Agenda: H. 3924 — Reps. Wooten, W. Newton, Erickson, Neese, Hager, Bannister, Herbkersman, M.M. Smith, Pedalino, Mitchell, Bustos, Lawson, Guffey, Hiott, Taylor, Ballentine, Vaughan, White, Long, Ligon, Guest, Gilliam, Hartnett, Bailey, Landing, B.J. Cox, Hayes, Atkinson, Willis, Lowe, T. Moore, Davis, Hixon, Martin, Pope, Henderson-Myers and Robbins: A BILL TO AMEND THE SOUTH CAROLINA CODE OF LAWS BY ADDING CHAPTER 56 TO TITLE 46 SO AS TO REGULATE THE SALE OF HEMP‑DERIVED CONSUMABLES, AMONG OTHER THINGS
Speakers giving testimony:
Dawson Hobbs the executive vice president of government affairs for the Wine and Spirits Wholesalers of America
Chief Mark Keel Chief of the S.C. Law Enforcement Division (SLED)
Christa Henson the executive director of the South Carolina Retail Association
Laura Slade Hudson, the executive director of the South Carolina Crime Victims Council.
Rick Reames III with the law firm of Maynard Nexsen representing a number of large distributors and retailers
April Bird with Connect South, a public policy firm working with American Healthy AlternativesSouth Carolina and North Carolina chapters since 2022
Michael Fields, director for the South Carolina Petroleum and Convenience Marketers Association
Matt Mitchell with Hemp and Barrel and also a part of the American Healthy Alternatives Association
Zach Serrins owner of a hemp farm, Charleston based hemp company the Carolina Dream, and a member of the South Carolina Healthy Alternatives Association and the Hemp Beverage Alliance
1. Dawson Hobbs (Wine and Spirits Wholesalers of America)
- Remarks and Position: Mr. Hobbs spoke in favor of comprehensive regulation of hemp-derived products, modeled on the existing three-tier alcohol system1. He argued that a ban is ineffective and merely pushes consumers to an unsafe, unregulated mail-order market2. He distinguished between “responsible” products (clear labeling, adult-focused marketing) and “irresponsible” ones (kid-friendly packaging, gas station products)3. He strongly advocated for banning synthetic cannabinoids (like Delta 8 and Delta 10), citing unknown safety profiles and their creation from imported CBD, often from China4. His key recommendations for regulation included:
- Licensing: For producers, distributors, and retailers5.
- Age-gating: 21+ for all purchases.
- Taxation: A per-milligram tax on THC, which he argued is fairer than a sales or volume tax.
- Potency Caps: Noted that most states are settling around 5mg per serving.
- Oversight: Placing regulation under an agency experienced with intoxicating products (like the Dept. of Revenue), not the Dept. of Agriculture9.
- Questions and Answers:
- On Potency: He stated there is no perfect scientific equivalence between 5mg of THC and a standard alcoholic drink (like a beer or glass of wine) due to different metabolism and tolerance build-up. He did confirm that a milligram of THC is a standard measurement, and responsible companies use third-party testing to verify it.
- On the Current Situation: He confirmed products are currently being sold in South Carolina with no regulation. He stated that under the current non-regulation, a 14-year-old could theoretically buy the product, no specific taxes are being collected, and there is no manufacturing oversight.
- On Federal Law: He mentioned a pending federal appropriations bill that might ban products with more than 0.4mg of THC, but it includes a one-year delay, meaning states still need to act14.
- On Synthetics (Delta 8/10): He reiterated that these are often made from imported CBD, whereas Delta 9 is extracted directly from domestically grown hemp plants15. He stated there is very little research on the synthetics and they should be “shelved”.
2. Chief Mark Keel (S.C. Law Enforcement Division – SLED)
- Remarks and Position: Chief Keel spoke in strong opposition to the products and advocated for a total ban17. He stated that in his view, all intoxicating THC products above 0.3% are already illegal in South Carolina under state law (Schedule I controlled substance). His primary concern was the danger to children, showing examples of products with kid-friendly marketing like “Back school buzz”. He argued the current situation is “unenforceable” due to the sheer volume of products in “nearly every smoke shop, gas station, convenience store, grocery store, retail shop, bakery”. He cited links between smoke shops and violence, and studies linking THC to fatal car crashes and high veteran suicide rates in states with legalization21. If a ban fails, he stated the bill’s 21+ age limit is an absolute minimum requirement, but he expressed concern that passing any regulation would “legitimize” these products.
- Questions and Answers:
- On Legality: He reiterated his belief that the products are illegal under SC code 44-53-190 (D18), but acknowledged that law enforcement and prosecutors lack a clear, consistent directive, which is why a ban is needed.
- On Enforcement: He argued a ban would be more enforceable than the current grey area because it would make the products “illegal per se”.
- If Regulation Happens: He stated that, in his opinion, the products should only be sold in liquor stores for off-premise consumption, not in convenience stores or restaurants.
- On DUI Testing: He mentioned that Drug Recognition Experts (DREs) can be used, but a blood test is required. He deferred to his toxicologists on the specifics of testing for active impairment versus lingering presence.
3. Christa Henson (South Carolina Retail Association)
- Remarks and Position: Ms. Henson spoke in favor of reasonable regulation. She represents traditional retailers like grocery stores, convenience stores, and pharmacies. Her association’s primary request was for consistency and efficiency, ensuring “fair competition” by applying the same rules to all retailers (e.g., a grocery store should have the same rules as a liquor store for the same product). She argued her members are already experienced in responsibly handling age-restricted products (alcohol, tobacco, lottery). She noted the bill should be amended to include an exception for employees aged 18-20 to legally sell the products, similar to existing beer and wine laws.
- Questions and Answers:
- On Potency/Location: She stated the association has no position on potency caps or whether products are liquid or gummy. When pressed, she clarified that her members would prefer the products be regulated like beer and wine (which they can sell) rather than like liquor (which has separate location rules).
4. Laura Slade Hudson (South Carolina Crime Victims Council)
- Remarks and Position: Ms. Hudson spoke in strong opposition to the bill and in favor of a total ban34. She cited her work with child fatality committees, where she sees “parenting under the influence” as a major factor in child deaths, and her work with MADD, seeing impairment from THC mixed with alcohol. She emphatically stated that regulating THC “like alcohol” is a “joke” and a “laughingstock” because, in her opinion, South Carolina’s alcohol regulation is already a failure.
- Questions and Answers:
- On Regulation as an Alternative: When asked if she would support regulation if a ban fails, she said no. She argued that passing a 21+ age restriction implicitly makes the product legal for adults, which she cannot support.
5. Rick Reames III (Maynard Nexsen)
- Remarks and Position: Mr. Reames, representing large distributors and retailers (including Southern Crown) interested in the beverage market, spoke in favor of full regulation. He characterized the current bill as an “emergency bill” to get a 21+ age limit, but argued the best solution is to put these products into the existing three-tier alcohol system. He claimed this would solve all licensing, testing, and public safety concerns41. He stated “reputable players” want to sell 5-10mg products, not the high-potency items Chief Keel displayed. He also cited a September 2024 Attorney General’s opinion that he claimed found the products legal in SC and invited regulation.
- Questions and Answers:
- On Specifics: He confirmed his clients support sales in all licensed locations (c-stores, grocery, liquor stores) for a “level playing field,” and support on-premise (bar) consumption. He stated they are “fine with banning” synthetics (Delta 8 and 10) and support a 10mg-or-less cap for products.
- On Tiered Potency: He acknowledged that it “does make some sense” to potentially follow the alcohol model, where lower-potency items are sold widely (like beer/wine) and higher-potency items are restricted (like liquor).
6. April Bird (Connect South)
- Remarks and Position: Ms. Bird, representing the American Healthy Alternatives Association (which includes cultivators, manufacturers, testers, and retailers), spoke in favor of regulation47. She said the 21+ age limit in the bill is a “good start” but that the industry wants more comprehensive rules to “remove the bad actors”. These include:
- Childproof packaging.
- Clear labeling requirements.
- Mandatory third-party testing with Certificates of Analysis (COAs).
- Licensing for manufacturers, distributors, and retailers.
- A taxing structure.
7. Michael Fields (SC Petroleum and Convenience Marketers Assoc.)
- Remarks and Position: Mr. Fields spoke in favor of regulation to achieve “guidance and clarity”. He stated his members (convenience stores) want “a clear target that they can hit” and support “appropriate and reasonable guard rails”. He noted his members check 4.5 million IDs daily and are experienced with age-restricted sales.
- Questions and Answers:
- On Specifics: He stated he had no official position yet on banning Delta 8/10, milligram limits, or sales locations, but that his association is “willing to work” with the committee on all those points. He confirmed his members want to be able to sell the product if it’s legal.
- On Member Opinion: He noted the vote by his board to support regulation was “overwhelming but not unanimous”.
8. Matt Mitchell (Hemp and Barrel / American Healthy Alternatives Assoc.)
- Remarks and Position: Mr. Mitchell, an owner of a retail store in North Carolina near the SC border, spoke in favor of regulation61. He noted he gets “a bunch” of South Carolina customers. He self-imposes a 21+ age limit with an ID scan required for entry at his store. Questions and Answers:
- On Potency Equivalence: He said there is no exact comparison, but he would tell a new user 2.5mg or 5mg is a safe start. He estimated 40-50mg might be equivalent to a six-pack of beer.
- On Topicals vs. Ingestibles: He confirmed that topical creams do not produce an intoxicating or euphoric effect; only ingestion or smoking does.
- On Packaging: He agreed that high-potency cans (e.g., 50mg in a 12oz can) are problematic, as consumers expect “one can, one serving”67. He said it “makes sense” to cap 12oz cans at a low milligram limit and require high-potency products to be sold in multi-serving bottles, like liquor.
- On Onset Time: He stated that beverages are fast-acting (similar to alcohol) because of the way they are made, unlike gummies, which have a well-known delayed effect.
- On His Products: He sells drinks, gummies, and flower (plant material), which is legal in North Carolina.
9. Zach Serrins (The Carolina Dream / SC Healthy Alternatives Assoc.)
- Remarks and Position: Mr. Sarins, owner of a Charleston-based hemp company and holder of a graduate degree in hemp science from Cornell, spoke in favor of regulation71. He called the 21+ age gate a “no-brainer” but also asked for mandatory testing, licensing, and consumer protections72. He argued that the SC industry is already $500 million in revenue, which is not going to the black market, and that a ban would only create one.
- Questions and Answers:
- On Potency Equivalence: He stated that 2.5mg to 5mg is roughly equivalent to the feeling from one light beer.
- On High-Dose Risk: He said a new user consuming a 50mg can would “potentially have an adverse reaction” and would “absolutely” be impaired and should not drive.
- On On- vs. Off-Premise: He strongly supported different rules for bars versus stores76. He suggested a low cap (e.g., 5-10mg) for on-premise sales, but allowing higher-potency, multi-serving products (like bottles) for off-premise sales, similar to the “shot vs. handle of vodka” model.
- On Max Caps: When pressed, he suggested a potential package cap of 500mg (e.g., in a 750ml bottle) with a serving cap of 50-100mg within that specific high-dose product could be a responsible upper limit for off-premise-only sales.
- On DUI Testing: He suggested SLED should research mouth swabs, which he claimed can detect recent consumption (within ~2 hours) and may be more useful for roadside impairment checks than blood tests, which are complicated by tolerance.
Complete Testimony Transcript:
A complete but flawed transcript please use in conjunction with the video for clarity:
testimony on H 3924.
Agenda: H. 3924 — Reps. Wooten, W. Newton, Erickson, Neese, Hager, Bannister, Herbkersman, M.M. Smith, Pedalino, Mitchell, Bustos, Lawson, Guffey, Hiott, Taylor, Ballentine, Vaughan, White, Long, Ligon, Guest, Gilliam, Hartnett, Bailey, Landing, B.J. Cox, Hayes, Atkinson, Willis, Lowe, T. Moore, Davis, Hixon, Martin, Pope, Henderson-Myers and Robbins: A BILL TO AMEND THE SOUTH CAROLINA CODE OF LAWS BY ADDING CHAPTER 56 TO TITLE 46 SO AS TO REGULATE THE SALE OF HEMP‑DERIVED CONSUMABLES, AMONG OTHER THINGS
Speakers giving testimony:
Dawson Hobbs the executive vice president of government affairs for the Wine and Spirits Wholesalers of America
Chief Mark Keel Chief of the S.C. Law Enforcement Division (SLED)
Christa Henson the executive director of the South Carolina Retail Association
Laura Slade Hudson, the executive director of the South Carolina Crime Victims Council.
Rick Reames III with the law firm of Maynard Nexsen representing a number of large distributors and retailers
April Bird with Connect South, a public policy firm working with American Healthy AlternativesSouth Carolina and North Carolina chapters since 2022
Michael Fields, director for the South Carolina Petroleum and Convenience Marketers Association
Matt Mitchell with Hemp and Barrel and also a part of the American Healthy Alternatives Association
Zach Serrins owner of a hemp farm, Charleston based hemp company the Carolina Dream, and a member of the South Carolina Healthy Alternatives Association and the Hemp Beverage Alliance
1:56
you swear testimony you’re about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Yes, sir. Thank you, sir.
2:03
Floor is yours. Thank you.
2:28
Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to be here. Um, Senator, um, my name is
2:34
Dawson Hobbs. I’m the executive vice president of government affairs for the Wine and Spirits Wholesalers of America.
2:40
Our members represent, uh, the distributors of Wine and Spirits products across the country. Um,
2:46
collectively our members distribute about 85% of the wine and spirit sold in the United States. Um, they’re all
2:53
family-owned businesses. And in recent years, in states where it’s legal, some
2:58
of them have begun to distribute hemp derived beverage products. And so we’ve begun to engage on making sure that
3:04
these products are uh safely made uh and effectively regulated because we believe
3:11
that the alcohol regul regulatory model has been successful for close to 90 years and that the goals of that model
3:19
are the same ones that should be applied to any intoxicating product uh and can be applied to intoxicating hemp uh
3:25
beverages. Um, I’m going to talk a little bit today about the history of these products, uh, how we got here, and
3:32
really what other states are doing in terms of how they’re regulating them. Um, the thing to keep in mind is, uh,
3:39
marijuana and hemp are the same plant. Um, they were both federally illegal uh
3:45
under the Controlled Substances Act up until 2018 when the definition of hemp
3:51
was modified under federal law to include any cannabis plant with less than.3%
3:57
uh delta 9 THC. Um, that means the exact same plant just with a different
4:03
varietal that has a very small amount of THC, which is the intoxicating molecule
4:09
that comes from a cannabis plant. Well, what the industry has done is they have
4:15
uh determined that you can take a large amount of that hemp cannabis plant with
4:23
that very small amount of THC in it, extract that small amount of THC from
4:28
that large amount of plants, and you essentially wind up with a uh
4:33
concentrate of just the THC. you can then use that as an ingredient in any
4:39
variety of products. Um, it can be used in beverage products, gummy products, other, you know, food products,
4:47
tinctures, other things that they’re used. And it has the same intoxicating effect as a cannabis THC, but it is
4:54
derived from a federally legal plant, which is the hemp plant. Those can be placed in responsibly made
5:01
and marketed products like the ones you see here. Um, and there are many others. These were just a random selecting that
5:06
we chose. You can see these look, they clearly say they’re THC. Um, they have
5:12
clear indications of how much THC are in them. Um, they’re marketed in much the same way that most beverage alcohol
5:18
products are marketed. Um, they’re they’re attempted to be uh consumed by adults. Um, they are really trying these
5:26
are the companies that we would say are trying to do it the right way and that they’re operating in a well- reggulated fashion in a number of states. There are
5:34
products on the market that are not responsible. Those are the ones that you
5:39
see in gas stations and smoke shops that are marketed directly to kids. Um they
5:45
look like products that kids already buy. Um WSWAD advocated at the federal
5:50
level and supported our state associations across the country in eliminating these products. Um many of
5:56
these products are also made with what we call synthetic canabonoids. um that is things other than delta 9
6:03
THC. Um things like delta 8 and delta 10 that are manufactured through a
6:09
synthesis process. Um these process these products often uh
6:16
come are made using some sorts of heats and acids and um solvents that can
6:22
remain behind. The safety of those products are not well known and they’re something that we believe should be
6:28
eliminated from the marketplace. Um, it’s important to look at what the state
6:33
of the hemp derived beverage market is right now in the United States. Um, sales this year are estimated to be a
6:40
little over a billion dollars, about $1.1 billion. Um, there are 5 to 700 brands nationally
6:48
around the country that are legitimate brands operating in the beverage space alone. Uh but as with a lot of
6:55
industries, there’s about 20 that are getting, you know, the bulk of the revenue and then there’s a long tail associated with it. Not unlike the
7:02
alcohol industry, frankly. Um we believe that if effective regulation is put in
7:08
place and that the economic estimates show that it could grow by 20 to 25%
7:13
this year and next year. Uh it is interesting to note who the consumer of these products are. Um, some
7:21
brands will tell you that 60% of their consumers are are women and that a s
7:27
significant number of those are mothers. Uh, that they tend to be um more
7:33
middle-aged. Uh, they tend to be different than the can true cannabis dispensary consuming uh consumer uh that
7:41
you see in in a cannabis legal state. Um, these are quite frankly,
7:48
suburban parents are one of the fastest growing segments of the of the consumer for these products. Um, they view them
7:55
as something that that is a way to recreate and unwind at the end of the day or on the weekend. Um, that often
8:02
has less calories than a traditional alcohol product. And and they think, you know, is something that still does the
8:08
has the same relaxing effect that they might get from a glass of wine that they have on a different night.
8:16
So talking about those uh synthetic products as you can see what you have here is essentially the naturally
8:22
derived products which is delta 9 and then the synthetically derived the most common of which are delta 8 and delta
8:29
- There are THCP and THCO which are other novel canabonoids that are created
8:35
sometimes out of whole cloth in a laboratory. Um you don’t see those as frequently. You often see the delta 8
8:42
and delta 10 uh on products on shelves. Those others tend to be more in vape
8:47
products, less so in beverage and and edible products. U but delta 8 and delta 10 you see in in very similar products
8:54
to where you see delta 9. Um one of the things that’s important to know is that a lot of these synthetic
9:00
products use CBD as their base. And the farm bill in 2018 not only created the
9:07
definition of hemp but it also made legal the importation of CBD. Uh we
9:14
import a significant amount of CBD oil from other countries. Um a lot of it
9:20
comes from Canada but a lot of it also comes from China. And those products that CBD is then often used to create
9:27
those syna synthetic canabonoids. uh and we know Chinese do not have the
9:33
same regulations that we do when it comes to pesticides and and other treatment of plants while it’s growing.
9:39
So there’s a real question as to the purity of the base product that’s then being used to create those synthetics.
9:45
This is all to make the point that that I made earlier that there’s a legitimate case to be made that only the naturally
9:51
occurring product THC that comes from the plant is what should be allowed and that synthetic products should at a
9:57
minimum be heavily studied and restricted if not made illegal outright.
10:04
So what are states doing? As you can see this map looks like a little bit of a popery. Um states are all over the
10:10
place. Uh you have some states that have outright banned the products. You can see, you know, Arkansas being the one
10:16
closest to South Carolina here, but also Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, North Dakota.
10:22
Um, there’s a number of states that have done nothing. Um, those are those light
10:29
blue states. There’s also a few states that have recreational cannabis that have pushed hemp into the cannabis
10:36
dispensary lane. They’re taking the view that THC is THC regardless of its plan of origin. uh and they’re putting it
10:42
into their dispensary lane. But then you see those purple states, which are the ones we’re we’re going to talk about
10:48
here the most. Those are the states that have done something. Um and that ranges
10:53
from as little as requiring retailers to register uh maybe retiring retailers to
10:59
get a a license that sometimes is even free and has very very few uh requirements. um to really what we think
11:06
are are the states that have taken a more uh aggressive and appropriate step.
11:11
I mean, Minnesota, Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, New Jersey, where they’ve started to institute comprehensive
11:18
regulatory structures. And I will flat out say I don’t think any of these states have got it 100% right yet. But
11:26
every one of these states has done a few things well. Um what is important is
11:32
that it starts with that lensure element which is that everybody involved in the industry has to have a license just like
11:38
we do for alcohol. Whether you’re a producer, a retailer or a distributor, you have a license that can be forfeited
11:44
if you violate the rules relative to the products. They’ve also instituted things
11:50
like agegating to make sure only adults can purchase the product. uh taxation
11:55
structures um put in place in some cases even uh trade practice restrictions like
12:00
we have in the alcohol space that govern the relationship between retailers and and producers and wholesalers. Um
12:07
they’ve also put into place hours and days of sale. Uh those are the states that we think are state really moving
12:14
towards what we view as a holistic approach to hemp regulation.
12:19
Um, we like to point really frankly at a few states as the ones that have taken
12:24
the most recent and most comprehensive action. That’s Kentucky, Alabama, and Tennessee. Um, again, I don’t think any
12:31
of these states have done it exactly perfectly yet, but they have good elements. T Kentucky really tried to put
12:38
hemp into as much as it could its alcohol structure. It created a new definition within their alcohol code for
12:45
hemp derived products and then applied as many of the alcohol laws as possible
12:51
to those products. Alabama and Tennessee um took a little different approach.
12:57
They copied much of their alcohol code but created a new code section uh which
13:02
addressed these products on a a you know holistic basis. Um, Georgia is another
13:07
that has has taken some good steps, but they I think um by leaving it with their
13:13
department of agriculture um made a little bit of an oversight because uh if
13:18
you take one of the the the quirks of the Georgia law, you can sell hemp products in places that have beer and
13:23
wine licenses, but you cannot sell them in a place that has a spirits license. Um, so you really have in Georgia’s
13:30
case, the retailers that are the most heavily regulated are the ones that are not allowed to sell the product. Um, as
13:37
opposed to the ones that are less regulated. Um, we think it’s important uh that the oversight of these products
13:43
be given to an agency that has experience with enforcement and experience with uh oversight of an
13:51
intoxicating product. The Department of Agriculture typically does not have that in most states.
13:58
Um, as you can see, there are a handful of states that have banned these products completely. Um, California is
14:04
unique in this space in that it has done so through a governor’s executive order
14:09
rather through than through legislation. Um, and so that can be changed at any
14:15
time. Uh, we believe that the governor has done that to try and force the legislature to take action to create a
14:21
regulatory structure. Um but as of yet the the legislature has not done that.
14:26
Similarly um well actually let me I’ve got a little out order there. Let me um talk
14:32
about Kentucky and Tennessee. Um as you can see we think that they have two of
14:37
the most comprehensive regulatory systems. Um Kentucky has two notable
14:44
oversightes. They do not have a ban on synthetic products and they did not ban
14:49
mail order shipment of the product. Uh we think that for a comprehensive regulatory structure, eliminating online
14:55
sales with home delivery is important uh because that’s an avenue that right now
15:00
is wide open for underage folks to access the products and for the products
15:05
to be sold in places where they shouldn’t be or aren’t allowed to be.
15:11
Um, what I was going to say is is, uh, in Ohio, um, they recently, the governor recently
15:18
issued a temporary executive order banning the sale of the products. Um, it was for 90 days and that was in response
15:25
to the legislature not acting. Um, the legislature has now taken up a bill. It
15:32
has been through both houses. It’s working its way through conference committee. Um, and we expect that to be
15:38
completely resolved uh and and sent to the governor in the not too distant future.
15:47
As you can see, there’s a lot of activity in this space. Um, we expect there to be bills in about half the
15:53
states in this coming legislative session. Uh, states, there’s kind of I I
15:58
joke about it a little bit. There’s two states that two kinds of states. There’s states that have hemp legislation. in
16:04
there states that are going to get hemp legislation. Um the fact of the matter is that every state is grappling with
16:11
how to deal with this because these products came to the marketplace and in the vast majority of states the code
16:16
simply does not contemplate them. Um so they’re not regulated at all. Um, we
16:21
believe that that is a a failing and that the regulation should be enacted
16:27
and we’re working with our state associations in all of these states uh to make sure that these products are
16:33
regulated in a safe manner. And I want to be clear, one of the options in regulating is a full ban. Um, as we
16:40
said, you know, Arkansas, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, they have those bans in place. The effectiveness of those are up
16:48
to some question. Um but it is one option in terms of a path moving forward. What we have seen is in states
16:55
where a ban goes into place, most of the consumer demand winds up being satisfied
17:00
through mail order. Um the the fact is nobody has the resources or the ability
17:06
to check every package coming into the c into the uh state. Um and so consumers
17:11
tend to go to mail order to get their products. In those cases then are they getting them from reputable sources?
17:17
They’re getting them from companies that are willing to ship to a place where the product isn’t legal. Um, those tend to
17:22
be companies that are in that second slide I showed you that we’re maybe making less responsibly marketed
17:28
products. Um, we believe that the the better thing for public safety is is to
17:33
have these products available in a well- reggulated uh stream of commerce.
17:40
So, we’ve developed a series of considerations that we think states should keep in mind as they develop
17:46
legislation surrounding hemp regulation. Um, the first is really thinking about
17:51
sales locations and scope. Where can you sell it? When can you sell it? Um, this
17:57
is very similar to what we have for beverage alcohol. You have to have a license to sell beverage alcohol in
18:03
every state. You have hours of sale where you’re allowed to sell it. In many states, you have restrictions on how
18:09
close you can be to a school or to a church or to other places like that. Many of those same elements can be
18:14
applied here to these products. The goals are the same. You want it to be sold by somebody who’s responsible. You
18:20
want them to be accountable to make for making sure that IDs are being checked. You want to make sure that the taxes are
18:26
being paid. Um so, so following a similar system as to what a state has
18:31
for its beverage alcohol law just makes sense. Um, the second thing is the license
18:38
requirements themselves. Uh, making sure that the the entities that get a license to sell these, for instance, you know,
18:44
don’t have a criminal record. Um, that they’re up to date on their taxes, that their business license is accurate, all
18:50
of those things. Making sure that we know who’s selling it and that they’ve gone through some vetting process to
18:56
make sure that they’re a responsible retailer. Again, this is modeled straight after the alcohol code and and
19:02
something that we’ve seen work very well for the last 90 years. The next is um payment and tax
19:08
collection. And this is this is a really interesting one. And I think this is the one that no state really has gotten
19:14
exactly right yet. And that is if you’re going to have these products, it makes sense to tax them just as we tax
19:21
beverage alcohol. Um but the question is how do you get that tax rate correct? Most states are following uh some sort
19:28
of a g gallonage or dry weight tax. There’s a couple states that have done a sales tax. Um, we believe that the
19:36
weakness of those forms of taxation is they incentivize lowcost high potency
19:42
products. If your if your tax is based on how many ounces of liquid are in the can, then a 12 ounce can with 2
19:50
milligrams has the same tax rate as a 12 can with 10 milligrams of THC in it. So,
19:56
uh, if you think about spirits, for instance, at the federal level, it’s taxed per proof gallon. So a an 80p
20:03
proof bottle of whiskey pays a lower total tax than a 100p proof bottle of whiskey. It’s a more potent product.
20:10
You’re taxing the intoxicating molecule. We think that the best way forward is actually to have a per millgram tax. Um
20:18
and you can kind of do the back of the envelope math of looking at what your alcohol tax rate is. see what that
20:24
applies to, you know, 12 ounces and then kind of figure out where that milligram
20:30
tax should be to be on a on a level playing field with your alcohol tax.
20:35
Uh the next, which really only Tennessee has has taken real steps to consider, is
20:40
we think there should be trade practice regulations. Um in the alcohol space, we have very strict rules that govern what
20:47
a wholesaler or a supplier’s relationship with a retailer can be. Um that also includes things like the
20:53
extension of credit. Uh you cannot extend unlimited credit to a retailer because you don’t want them buying on
21:00
credit, dumping the product to consumers, and then shuttering their doors, which was a pre-prohibition problem. Um it’s something that can be
21:08
applied to the hemp derived intoxicant marketplace. Um, we also think it’s
21:14
important to have that separation between the producers and the retailers. Uh, because it encourages the retailer
21:21
to carry multiple products and multiple doses, multiple strengths of those products. They won’t just be pushing
21:27
people into the one that’s the most profitable for the manufacturer.
21:33
The next is um product and retail establishment considerations. This really is where we get into the
21:39
conversation um that a lot of these bills stick on, which is the potency caps. Uh
21:46
what is the right number in terms of a product being uh put on the shelf? Is it
21:52
2 milligrams? Is it 5 milligrams? Is it 10 milligrams per serving or per can? Um
21:59
most states, which we’ll get to in a minute, are settling in that 5 to 10 milligram range. uh but it’s definitely
22:05
something that legislation should absolutely consider. The other thing to consider relative to this is labeling.
22:12
You want to make sure that the products are clearly labeled and that they’re clear that that of what’s in it and what
22:18
the potency is. Um and then also uh where where it comes from. And then the
22:24
last um is other things to consider such as your highway safety, underage access,
22:30
um making sure that there’s strict penalties for providing the products to minors, making sure that there’s strict
22:35
penalties for people that drive after consuming the products. You can see here um we have a chart that
22:43
shows uh where states potency caps are. So you can see most states that have any
22:49
kind of regulatory system um are settling around this uh 5 mgram uh cap
22:56
although some of them allow multiple servings per container. Um which there is a logic to that because there are
23:02
products on the market that are not single serve. They’re they’re more like a spirits bottle that’s made to be mixed into cocktails. It’s not made to be a a
23:09
12 ounce single serve type product. Although those are the most common for form factor. Um, but we we’ve seen most
23:17
states uh come down on this 5 milligram uh potency cap. Some of that is also
23:24
because in most states that have legal cannabis, a cannabis serving is considered 10 milligrams. And so they’re
23:30
viewing hemp products as a a lower dose alternative uh for those THC products.
23:38
That’s the overview of what’s happened around the country. I’m happy to uh answer any questions that folks have. I
23:44
also like to say as this process moves forward um we’re happy to come back down
23:49
talk further um answer questions also available via phone email um and we
23:55
really appreciate your involving WSWA in this product process and and our members
24:01
and we’re happy to be here and happy to be a constructive part of finding a solution to to properly regulate these
24:08
products. Any questions? Senator from Calhoun. Senator Rot. Thank
24:13
you, Mr. Chairman, and and thank you for that um very thorough explanation. Um I
24:20
think the first thing that I want to get at right now is what’s going on currently in the state of South
24:26
Carolina. And it’s it’s safe to say and I’m correct to say that it is being sold
24:33
right now across the state hemp infused, THC infused beverages. Um,
24:41
yes. Unrestricted currently, just with no regulation. Yes, I I can I can tell you I I have
24:47
I’ve been in retail establishments in South Carolina that have these products sitting on, you know, incap displays and
24:53
and readily available. So So how is that the case? If we’re looking at legislation to regulate it,
25:00
one would assume that it’s currently not allowable, but yet we have retail
25:05
establishments that are. Um that would be an enforcement question that I don’t I don’t really have I’m not
25:12
my understanding is um that while the the products themselves are not legal um
25:20
that there is also not a the tools made available to to enforce any of the the
25:28
against any of the folks that might be selling them. So obviously with with alcohol we’ve got the three tier system.
25:34
None of that applies or is being applied currently. um
25:39
retail establishment. So, have you seen that be applied in the states where it
25:46
has been legalized where you have to go through um
25:52
a a wholesaler to um essentially yeah um
25:57
product out Tennessee and Kentucky um Alabama uh New Jersey uh they have all
26:04
instituted laws that require a wholesale license. Um Tennessee and Kentucky uh or
26:12
Tennessee in particular have required the product to go through a wholesaler. Uh some of the other states still allow
26:19
manufacturers to directly sell to the retailer, but they have to obtain that wholesale license in order to do so.
26:26
And then finally, I just really need some help with this one, and I appreciate the conversation around the
26:32
limits, the milligram limits. Is a milligram a milligram or is there higher
26:39
and I don’t even know if that makes sense but is is the is the THC?
26:46
Yeah. So potent in some instances that’s a good question actually. Um a
26:52
milligram of this is this is a milligram of pure THC. So a a milligram of THC is a milligram
26:59
of THC. Um, so a five milligram will always be more. Why is that?
27:05
Well, the THC it’s a measurement. It’s a volutric measurement of pure THC.
27:10
I get that. But who is who is making sure
27:15
that it is what Yeah. So the seller says it is. So in for instance in Tennessee um they
27:22
have required independent third party testing of the products. Um those testing facilities are licensed and they
27:30
um they have to test a a representative sample of of every batch to show that
27:35
the products are what they say. Very similar to what we have for alcohol. You know, at the federal level, TTB does
27:41
audits every year where they test your your bottles of whiskey and see if an 80 proof, you know, is actually 79 proof or
27:49
82 proof. Is that being done at the manufacturer level or is that being done at the retail level?
27:56
In most states, it’s being done at the manufacturer level.
28:02
So, so we would require a statement of authenticity almost authentic. Yeah. Essentially what what you what we
28:08
have to do is a a supplier or producer um has a requirement to comply with a
28:14
certain testing schedule and testing standard. um they would get a certificate of compliance from the
28:20
testing facility saying, you know, your product checks out. It is what it says it is, and they’d maintain that record.
28:27
Um you could do audits at the retail level where you pull products off the retail shelf and see if they again u
28:34
meet the same standard. Um I can actually tell you most of the responsible members within the industry
28:39
right now, um they have an a code of conduct and they’re doing their own testing even where not required. um they
28:47
believe that that selling product that isn’t what it says it is is going to be bad for business in the long run.
28:53
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator from Darlington.
28:59
I have an easy one. What does WSWA stand for? Wine and Spirits Wholesalers of America.
29:05
Thank you, sir.
29:11
Senator from Greenville. Thank you, Mr. chairman. Um, sir, maybe
29:16
following up or expanding on what Senator Au was talking about, can you help me understand, so if I’ve got it
29:22
correctly that the product has to contain less than 0.03%
29:28
hemp? So, the hemp plant has to have less than.3%
29:34
THC. Okay. So help me understand then how that can equate to 5 millig two 1
29:41
milligram 5 milligrams or 150 milligrams per package. Yeah. So um if you think about it this
29:48
way, right? So let’s say um let’s say a hemp plant
29:55
uh weighs 100 pounds.
30:00
um that means it can the plant itself can contain no more than.3
30:08
pounds of THC within it. So what you do
30:13
is you take that 100 pounds of hemp plant, you extract the.3 pounds of THC
30:20
from that plant and you do that from enough plants until you have enough THC
30:25
to use as an ingredient in that beverage product. A it is is candidly a a failing of the
30:36
uh federal system that they continue to focus on regulating the plant rather
30:41
than the molecule which is really what we care about, right? Like we don’t we don’t care about all the leftover pieces
30:47
of the plant that get turned into fertilizer at the end because it’s the molecule that intoxicates. That’s the
30:52
part that we we really want to craft a regulatory structure around. Following up on that, the um is there anything
31:00
happening federally that will impact this? I I was going to close with that. So, um
31:07
the the as you all probably have heard, the government appears to be on a path to reopen this week. Um included in the
31:15
appropriations bill uh that will do that is a language um that further modifies
31:23
the definition of hemp including hemp derivatives that will not allow any end
31:30
products that have more than 0.4 milligrams of T of THC in them um to be
31:37
sold. But that provision does not go into effect until one year after the
31:44
passage of the bill. So assuming they pass the bill and it’s signed by the president at the end of this week there
31:51
that will not go into effect until this time next year. Um, we believe that the
31:57
re we know that the reason they put that one-year delay in is because Congress
32:02
has a desire to work on a more comprehensive solution and they want
32:08
that to be a deadline to create a more comprehensive federal solution. Um, I
32:13
would also say that for the next year, these products are going to be available across the country. Um and and it is our
32:21
recommendation that states continue to look at how to regulate them. Um because
32:27
otherwise you’re sacrificing a whole legislative session. You get into the next year before you can do anything. I
32:32
would also say that we believe and and one of the reasons that WSWA has
32:37
actively opposed any federal ban on these products is so long as the plant is legal, people will make products out
32:45
of it. And the only people left in the industry will be those that are willing to operate in the shadows and violate
32:51
federal law. And companies like our members that are, you know, compliant
32:56
will not. And so you will have a less safe marketplace rather than a safer one. Just for clarification, if that federal
33:03
language, if hypothetically it becomes law and a year passes and it’s it’s implemented, what is the practical
33:10
effect of what would the product that would be available versus what’s available now? Uh the practical effect
33:16
would be very few products would be legally available. Now um you’re with the National
33:23
Association. Can you speak to the status of what’s going on in South Carolina with with um
33:29
wine and spirit wholesalers? Some distribute the product, some do not.
33:34
Um I there are some uh beverage alcohol distributors in South Carolina that are
33:40
handling the product. Yes. And with the difference between delta 9 versus the synthetics with eight and 10
33:47
with the proliferation of delta 9 products, are you seeing uh less of the
33:52
eight and nine as a part of the Yeah, I think if you look at nationally, you’re seeing less of the eight and 10
33:59
in beverages. Um you still see them in in what I what I call the sketchy
34:06
products. You know, those things that were on that slide that look like Skittles and gummy worms. Um, you know,
34:12
there there are there is no doubt there are bad actors in this industry and uh
34:19
it it but I think a path a path towards
34:25
um you know consumer confidence in the the naturally occurring products will
34:30
help eliminate those from a natural market standpoint. People want to know what they’re eating and and drinking is
34:36
safe. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator from York or Laura York.
34:43
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, I appreciate you being here first of all. This is very informative. Um, and and I
34:49
think that I know the answers to these questions, but I just want to get some clarification. So, uh, with the Delta 9
34:57
THC products, uh, the the hemp is essentially the same, like you said, the
35:04
same plant as the marijuana plant. Correct. Yes, sir. Um, but what they’re doing is
35:09
they’re having to extract. You’re having to use more plants to get to the same level. Is that correct?
35:14
Correct. And and you said that the states where marijuana is legal, the 10 milligram
35:20
dosage is, you know, what people would consider a serving size
35:26
for most for most uh legal cannabis states. That’s the case. And uh so when
35:34
it comes to well first of all you said that we’re importing a lot of the CBD
35:39
oils. There is a lot of imported CBD oil. Is that is that what’s going the CBDs or
35:46
the CBD oils that were taken in from Canada, China, wherever. Are those what are creating the delta 8 and 10 or the
35:53
delta 9? Yes. So delta 8 and 10. The delta 9 does not have to be converted from CBD
35:59
because it it naturally occurs in the plant. Um the delta 8 and delta 10 has
36:05
to go through is is created by putting CB CBD through a chemical process. Are we importing delta 9?
36:13
Not that I’m aware of. Not legally. So So then is it safe to say that we’re
36:18
domestically growing the plants that are supplying the Delta 9? Yes. Product base?
36:24
Yes. Um, do you know where where most of that agriculture? Um, so it’s it’s pretty varied. Um, I
36:32
would say KY’s a big one. It’s one of the largest. South Dakota I think is the second largest. There’s a lot um one of
36:39
the reasons that this change was made in 2018 um is because hemp is a excellent
36:44
plant um to on former tobacco farms. So as a lot of tobacco farmers were getting
36:50
out of the business they often had tired soil. Um, hemp is actually a really good
36:55
carbon fixer. It it helps re revitalize the soil. It’s a a good product um to
37:01
grow in similar soils as what a lot of tobacco farmers were. So, and well, let me ask you this
37:07
changing up a little bit. Um, from your organization standpoint, will there ever
37:13
be needs for whether you’re talking Delta 8 9 10 or anything else for for
37:18
any consumption level or any standard packaging to be more than five milligrams per serving?
37:26
I mean, I I think that’s a state-by-state question. As you can see, Tennessee has a much much higher uh, you
37:33
know, they have a effective regulatory structure. they’ve got a much higher u threshold. Um
37:40
I think there’s there’s also there have been some discussion in some states of maybe for instance treating lower dose
37:48
products more like a a low alcohol product and you know maybe those are the
37:55
things that are available in like a convenience or a grocery store and higher potency products are in more of a
38:00
a liquor store type outlet and and I guess I’m asking what’s your suggestion
38:08
So we I I’ll be frank, we do not have so WSWA’s most core belief on the
38:14
regulation of beverage alcohol and these products is in state authority and we
38:20
believe that um states have widely varying views on how intoxicants should
38:25
be handled and we don’t want to we do not have a national position on what the
38:30
potency should be. Um what we can point to is what most states have settled on which is around five milligrams. Um we
38:37
leave the door open for that because quite frankly there are states that that just have a different view. If you think
38:43
of beverage alcohol Utah and Nevada have very different views on alcohol and they’re right next door to each other
38:49
and both of them are great. In in your organization we’re generally talking about the drinks, right? The the
38:55
gummies, the whatever. Yeah. The products most of our members are distributing are the beverages. Yes.
39:01
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Couple of quick questions.
39:07
Explain potency to me. Tell me the difference between 3 milligrams and 10 milligrams and and
39:13
what that equates to or can it be equated to something? If I had an absolute perfect parallel,
39:20
I’ I’d be a very happy man. But um there isn’t. And and it’s for two reasons. Um,
39:26
the first is cannabis is a little or THC is a little
39:32
different than alcohol in how it impairs you and how it interacts with your body.
39:37
It also um builds tolerance in people differently than beverage alcohol does.
39:44
And so a regular consumer of THC will not have the same impact
39:52
um as even an infrequent or certainly a firsttime consumer does on say a 5
39:57
milligram serving. Um similarly two firsttime consumers can have slightly
40:03
different impacts because of the way their body metabolizes the product. So there’s not a number that I can say that
40:09
that a 5 milligrams is the equivalent to a a a beer or a glass of wine or a a
40:16
shot of whiskey. Um but I would tell you most people within the industry view
40:22
five milligrams as a um a a a very approachable
40:31
starting dose uh for somebody consuming the products.
40:38
I’m gonna push back because I got I so I’ve spent my whole life reading
40:44
about how if you weigh 180 pounds, you should have x amount of you have a beer and a half, two beers and all of a sudden you’re going to be intoxicated,
40:51
right? And so I’m wondering because I if if
40:58
I think you’ve said it correctly, we’re either going to ban this or we’re going to regulate this. And banning it’s an
41:06
easy law to draft up. But I think the goal of this subcommittee and the
41:12
committee will be to have two bills. one that bans one because if it fails to
41:19
ban, we have to regulate. And so I’m curious,
41:25
you know, if I go to a bar and I have three tequila shots and I weigh x amount
41:31
of pounds, they tell me I need to quit drinking and I don’t need to drive. If I go to a bar
41:38
and there are bars in my area that you can go and you can drink THC drinks
41:43
right now on on premise. So my question is if I if I have
41:50
two 12 ounce 5 mgram drinks, what can I equate that to? Or or is it just not
41:56
possible to equate that to something? Yeah, there’s there’s I mean from a
42:02
scientific standpoint, I’ve not seen any study that shows here’s an actual correlation. Everything that I could
42:07
tell you is anecdotal from people that have done what you’ve exactly said. and and so I you know I I don’t feel
42:15
comfortable testifying that that to be an equivalent
42:20
standard. That’s fair enough. Um I’ve seen a presentation and I don’t know where but
42:25
I’ve seen a presentation that did that. Um and so I I I’m sure somebody’s going to show it to
42:31
- I’m going to be here for a couple of days. Um so all right. Um, if we don’t do anything, if we just kind
42:40
of wait for the federal government to to work its way through this process in South Carolina, a 14-year-old could buy
42:47
this product. If if if a convenience store owner would sell it to them, a 14-year-old could buy it. Correct. That’s my understanding. Yes.
42:53
And we currently aren’t raising any taxes other than sales taxes off of it. Correct. And it can be sold liquor
43:00
stores, convenience stores, anybody who wants to sell it can pretty much sell it. And we have and we have, it’s also
43:07
my understanding, we have no idea who is manufacturing what is being sold
43:13
because there’s no regulation of that. And to my understanding, you have no idea who is selling it.
43:20
All right. Senator from Calhoun. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. and and I
43:26
certainly appreciate all of the questions from from my colleagues, but it one question leads to another, right?
43:32
As is typically the case. So, in light of everything that you’ve said,
43:37
which I think I’m grasping, the next question goes back to the synthetic parts of it, the delta 8s and the delta
43:44
- So, is a milligram of delta 9 the same as a milligram of delta 8? Because
43:52
you know, you see, you travel, you go places, you you see what’s being marketed
43:58
and and sometimes you’ll see something that says that if you want the effect for sleepy or if you want the effect for
44:07
funny, then this is the product that you should be taking. So, it’s hard for me to get my mind around exactly what I
44:14
think all of us are asking about, which is if a milligram of THC is a milligram of THC, is that a marketing ploy or is a
44:23
milligram of a synthetically derived product different
44:29
based off of that synthetic? So, I I would answer by saying we have imperfect information about Delta 9
44:37
because it’s been federally restricted for so long. there there is not the research we would like to have. We have
44:43
even less information about the synthetics and that’s why most many
44:48
people within the hemp industry and most people in everybody you know in our industry believes the synthetics should
44:55
be shelved at least for the time being until they can be studied. Let me ask you a question. Since you’re
45:01
national, has there been any deaths related to the consumption of any of
45:06
these products that you’re aware of? I’m not aware of any related to a a like an
45:11
overdose type death. Um I you know certainly there have been people that
45:17
consume THC and were involved in in motor vehicle accidents that type of thing for
45:23
Thank you. I’m going ask
45:30
how do you say it? Does your organization have a position
45:35
on my understanding it is being mixed into some of these drinks?
45:40
Um, we we do not support the legalization of
45:46
Yeah, but it’s still being mixed into some THC drink. I am not I’m not aware of any of our
45:51
members that are distributing products that have that in it. Any other questions for anybody? Senator
45:57
from York. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And
46:02
I almost am reluctant to open this can of worms. Um, but I do think that we’re
46:09
going to hear from state law enforcement division here. So, this is a question that how have you talked about how all
46:15
these other states have addressed many issues with this intoxicant. Um,
46:22
we just went through an awful exercise, something called tort reform. Um, and I
46:29
imagine have those states had to man manipulate their tort laws regarding
46:37
uh consumption of this in public places and resulting injuries from the
46:44
intoxicant. I am not aware of any that have. That’s
46:50
something I can look into and get back to you. I I’m not aware of any that have, though. Thank you.
46:58
Thank you, sir. Thank you. And again, I appreciate the time and and am always available if anybody has any followup.
Chief Mark Keel Chief of the S.C. Law Enforcement Division (SLED)
47:07
Chief Keel,
47:12
I’m going swear you in. Chief, you swear to tell the swear the testimony you’re about to give is the truth, the whole
47:17
truth, and nothing but the truth. Absolutely. Thank you, sir. Chief Kell, I’ll let you give remarks
47:23
and um committee members. I don’t if you want to ask a question even, you know,
47:29
while during the presentation, please just get my attention, but we want to ask questions.
47:36
Well, I’m not technologically advanced as much as Dawson is. So, I’ll show you some some
47:44
some papers and uh and hopefully say something that’ll mean
47:53
something to you here today. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, I intend on being brief. Um, I have
48:00
testified many times on marijuana and THC products since 2014,
48:06
and my position uh is well known. What is also well known is my unending
48:12
fight for our most valuable resource and our most vulnerable, and that’s our
48:18
children. I’ve seen firsthand how these products ruin children’s lives.
48:26
And I’ve seen the greed that manufacturers have. THC product manufacturers specifically
48:32
create products and packaging that appeals directly to children just to
48:38
make a dollar. And it disgusts me.
48:44
And this is just some of it. Back school buzz.
48:53
Buzz meter. Rise above the status quo.
48:59
That’s what these marketers are doing.
49:06
These intoxicating THC products and all THC derivative products above.3%
49:14
are in my view already illegal in South Carolina.
49:19
That also is unchanged. To be clear,
49:25
THC and THC derivatives are separately scheduled under South Carolina law and
49:32
they are schedule one currently under section 4453190
49:38
D18. What has changed is the overwhelming
49:44
amount of these products being trafficked in South Carolina from out of state and from overseas.
49:51
Easy access to THC products poses a real danger to our young people
49:57
and they’re in nearly every smoke shop, gas station, convenience store, grocery
50:02
store, retail shop, bakery, you name it, they’re everywhere.
50:08
And I can tell you it’s uninforceable right now. We don’t have the manpower to seize,
50:14
store, and analyze the quantity of THC products that’s in our state today.
50:19
And the violence associated with these smoke shops, the deal in these products is what I’ve been warning the public
50:25
about ever since I started talking about this topic in 2014.
50:32
I just Googled u smoke shops and murder.
50:38
And you can just this is just a few. Two killed, one injured after man opens fire
50:43
in Rock Hill, South Carolina smoke shop. Police say teens charged in man’s murder outside
50:50
Two Knox Road Vape Shop. Are you ready to die tonight? New details on smoke shop murder. And they
50:57
go on and on and on.
51:04
There’s no quality testing, no accurate serving sizes, and no
51:09
consistency. These products are incredibly dangerous
51:14
and users have no idea what they’re actually ingesting. I’ve seen multiple cases of drug induced
51:21
psychosis with deadly consequences.
51:29
I want give you some examples.
51:39
Indigo Vice City soda. 60 milligrams of THC.
51:47
It’s a pop top can as you can see. 12 servings.
51:53
Tell me how many people is going to open that can and going to drink an ounce at a time.
52:02
High Spirits Ice Team Lemonade. 50 milligrams of THC.
52:09
tells you right there on the can, 10 servings. Again, how many people is going to drink
52:14
1.2 ounces out of that can at a time?
52:20
And Classic City Hemp Delta 9 sweet tea with lemon
52:28
8 o five servings. Again, how many people is going to drink
52:34
1.6 ounces of that drink? Oftenimes
52:40
supporters state that marijuana has never killed anyone. It’s harmless. And I think those statements are bluntly
52:45
false.
52:51
If you read this is a study from the American College of Surgeons. Nearly half of drivers killed in crashes
52:57
had THC in their blood. THC impaired driving deaths are soaring and
53:02
legalization hasn’t slowed the trend. Over 40% of fatal crashes, crash victims
53:10
had THC levels far above the legal limits, showing cannabis use before
53:16
driving remains widespread.
53:21
On March the 2nd, 2022, WLTX reporter Becky Buds published a report on the
53:28
medical marijuana debate that was happening in the Senate. And in that report, Gary Hes, executive director of
53:35
Veterans Alliance for Holistic Alternatives, was quoted and he said, “The truth is, if it doesn’t pass
53:44
at 22 veterans a day, we’re going to lose almost 9,000 veterans.”
53:51
I think it’s important to note here we are the day before Veterans Day that
53:56
that is wholly speculative and completely inaccurate.
54:02
Just one veteran suicide is tragic. The data shows that states with the
54:07
highest and earliest access to marijuana and THC, including recreational marijuana, have
54:14
some of the highest veteran suicide rates in the country. And I ask you this question.
54:22
If marijuana and this THC was going to save veterans from suicide,
54:29
why is it not working in states that already have near unfettered access to
54:34
these products? In 2022, the latest data available
54:41
from the Department of Veterans Affairs, South Carolina veteran suicide rate was
54:47
34.3 per 100,000. North Carolina 30.4
54:55
and Florida 37.1 and the Southeast regional veteran
55:00
suicide rate was 37 34.7. However, Colorado’s veteran suicide rate
55:07
was 47.6 per 100,000 and Nevada 52.3
55:14
and Oregon 51.7. And the western region veteran suicide
55:19
rate was 40.4. The suicide rate in Nevada and Oregon for veterans between the ages of 18 and
55:26
34 was 68.2, double the national veteran suicide
55:33
rate. And again, these are facts straight from Department of Veterans Affairs.
55:40
Short of a General Assembly outright banning THC products immediately, which it seems Congress is prepared to do and
55:48
appropriations bill currently being debated. And let me be clear, I fully support
55:54
that effort. These products must be at the very least be limited to those 21 or
56:00
older. In the 2018 Farm Bill, it was never
56:06
intended to legalize these elicit intoxicating high potency THC products.
56:14
In August 2025, United States Senator Mitch McConnell
56:19
expressed that the existing hemp definition has resulted in an unintended consequence
56:28
that has been allowed for intoxicating hemp derived synthetic products to be made and sold. Calling for changes to
56:37
reflect the intent of the 2018 Farm Bill by closing that loophole.
56:43
Just last night, as uh Dawson said earlier, United States Senate advanced
56:48
the fiscal year 2026 Appropriations Act with a provision that would ban THC
56:54
products that we’re talking about today. The bill we’re discussing today
56:59
specifically states this does not legalize any product.
57:04
It simply makes clear that the products are currently out there are limited to people 21 and up.
57:12
I have real concern about potentially legitimizing these products if this bill
57:18
passes. But something must be done now to get these dangerous products out the hands
57:23
of our young people. Even if this bill passes, it is imperative Congress and the General
57:30
Assembly debate comprehensive legislation to suppress this growing
57:35
public safety and public health issue for South Carolinians.
57:40
I do make just one or actually two recommendations with this current bill.
57:49
On page three of this bill, uh, section 465640,
57:55
it talks about allowing Department of Agriculture asking Department of Agriculture to prescribe by regulation
58:03
the size and lettering and location of the sign on the seller’s premises.
58:08
I would highly recommend that that be done by this general assembly. Um, I think you already have the
58:16
language there. It’s in section A and I think that u again I just think that
58:22
should be done just like we have in the trespassing bill like we have in the CWP
58:27
bill where that uh that uh the location for those sign signage should be done
58:34
lettering and uh location should be done in the bill and then secondly chief let
58:39
me at the end of the bill section three let me ask you a question real fast because I want I want it’s a I want to
58:44
address what you just brought in your so that’s a sign that would be
58:50
regulated by the department of agriculture. Would you agree with me that if this
58:56
we’re not going to ban it if a ban doesn’t happen and we are going to regulate it? Yes. That this should be regulated under do
59:05
and with your enforcement authority not be at the department of agriculture. Yes sir. Absolutely.
59:11
All right. Thank you sir. No question. And then the last suggestion I have on this bill on page four where it says
59:18
section three, it talks about um doing the first 180 days. Um I would uh
59:27
express that I feel like we should do that within 60 to 90 days and not 180
59:33
days. Uh that would be my recommendation and I’ll be happy to answer any questions anyone might have.
59:42
Senator from Darlington. Afternoon, sir. Yes, sir.
59:49
Quick question. First one is those cans you got spread out there in front of you? Yes, sir. Where’d you get them from?
59:55
You can get them anywhere in South Carolina. Any convenience store. Just about any convenience store. Uh
1:00:02
like I say, we found them in bakeries, gas stations. Um, they usually have a they’re in a
1:00:11
cooler or sometimes they’re right at the front right when you walk in the door facing you when you walk in. I would
1:00:16
tell you on your way home today, you could probably stop at any convenience store or gas station on the way home and
1:00:22
find products like that. My second question,
1:00:28
Delta 9 as a whole was under the impression it was already illegal at our state. Is that not true?
1:00:34
It’s not true. Um I have some scientists behind me that uh obviously know a whole
1:00:41
lot better than I do but um any derivative of that is not is my
1:00:48
understanding. Is that correct any in in that in that concentration
1:00:55
that 3% above.3%? This this.3% thing has been pretty difficult for me
1:01:02
to wrap my head around. Understand a lot of the research I did on this was
1:01:07
on the the farm aspect of it and on the growing aspect of it. I know basically
1:01:13
and and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. Basically, if a if a hemp plant can only have 0.03% 03% THC to it.
1:01:23
If if that’s the case, is there’s no limit on the pure amount of THC that can
1:01:29
be in the product that you’re selling after after processing that hemp plant.
1:01:40
Yeah. Again, I would prefer that one of my scientists get here and answer that
1:01:45
question for you. I can tell you they’re much more adapt at that. But a bottom the bottom line is the difference between dry weight dry weight as it
1:01:53
states in the statute and then we talk about wet weight and they can explain to you uh why that makes this very
1:02:00
difficult to try and determine you know the what’s in some of these drinks
1:02:06
but but as is by law there is no limit on the amount of THC that can be in a container that is being sold as a
1:02:12
product in our state. Is is that correct? There’s no limit right now. No sir. We
1:02:18
we have found uh products that has as many as 160 milligrams in in a bottle.
1:02:23
And I can go into a convenience store, open up the open up the cooler, pull out
1:02:29
one of those, go check out, no ID, nothing, and walk out the door. That’s great. You know, I I think I told some people
1:02:35
he was 14, but I since learned he was 15. I watched my 15year-old cousin do that a few weeks ago.
1:02:42
No idea what the level of it was. I I didn’t check that hard. Right. I’ve watched that happen with my
1:02:47
own eyes. Absolutely. There’s no regulation on it whatsoever right now.
1:02:54
Thank you, sir. Senator from York.
1:02:59
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, the marijuana plant and the hemp
1:03:06
plant, it almost seems like they regulated, let me give you an analogy.
1:03:12
Say, say we, you know, they changed they made corn illegal unless the plant had
1:03:19
less than three years on it. I mean, it you know, it it really does. I mean,
1:03:25
Senator’s hoping his corn plants got more than three years on it. I can tell you that right now. I got you. I got you.
1:03:31
But but you see what I’m saying? I mean, I hate to make that analogy, but that essentially seems like what that farm
1:03:37
bill from 2018 did. I mean, it it just it said if you’ve got a diluted marijuana plant, then we’ll call it
1:03:42
hemp. And then we can take as much of the TS THC as we need to or take as many
1:03:48
plants as we need to to create the THC level that has the intoxicant and then
1:03:54
put it in a product. Is it Am I missing the bus on this or is that what’s happened?
1:03:59
I think that’s correct. Yes, sir. Simple terms.
1:04:06
Chief, Chief, I’m gonna ask a couple of questions real fast and then I’m g let
1:04:12
Senator Odd ask a couple questions. Um, again,
1:04:17
I think I’ve said it, we’re going we’re going to move a ban and then a regular a
1:04:23
regulate so we can see what happens. But again, let’s just I and I want to
1:04:30
focus a lot on regulating because if if you ban it, it’s easy. But if you
1:04:35
regulate it, it gets really difficult and we get in the weeds. Do you have a position on these products
1:04:43
being sold in convenience stores, grocery stores versus liquor stores?
1:04:48
It It’s uninforceable the way it is right now, being sold everywhere. If it’s not sold in a liquor store, a regulated
1:04:55
facility like a liquor store, I can tell you it’s going to be uninforceable. I mean, we we don’t there’s not enough we
1:05:02
don’t have enough personnel to to enforce it. Uh now, again, we do believe
1:05:08
that many of these THC products are uh illegal and we have made a number of
1:05:14
cases. Uh but uh it it’s uninforceable right now because it it is everywhere.
1:05:20
It’s in every business. So based on the fact that you think it should be sold in liquor stores, well no
1:05:26
let me these things they don’t. Do you believe that it should be sold for on
1:05:32
premises or off- premise consumption on on I I think it should be sold for in
1:05:38
in restaurants I think it should only be sold in in a in a liquor store type environment. So no we should this product should not
1:05:45
be sold at all in a restaurant. That’s my opinion. Okay. And then that’s fair. milligram
1:05:50
caps. Do you have a position on mill again? The five milligrams,
1:06:03
senator from Calhoun. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Chief. Thank you for being here, my friend. I always
1:06:10
enjoy and appreciate your commentary on the issue. Um,
1:06:16
it’s important to me, you know, that we go ahead and try to get some clarification right out of the gate that
1:06:21
I think on something that’s a little bit ambiguous. And that is is is it legal
1:06:26
right now? And and I heard what you just said that you think that some of the products being sold in South Carolina
1:06:33
are illegal. And I and I know that you’ve made some cases. Some people would assert that it is completely legal
1:06:40
what is happening right now in South Carolina because of the product being a federally recognized legal product that
1:06:49
whatever they’re making is is being made. And so it it’s and I think that’s just an important distinction or
1:06:56
question as we are now going to be looking at two different pieces of legislation and and it’s a on down the
1:07:04
line type of question or statement that I’m making but number one is it legal or
1:07:10
is it illegal? Senator, I’ll just tell you that again, if you look in
1:07:15
the title 43, title 44, South Carolina code law 4453190
1:07:22
D18 says specifically names THC as being a schedule one control substance,
1:07:30
but the feds the feds do not. What was that? the federal government
1:07:35
does not as long as it’s a hemp derivative and not a marijuana d and and listen I
1:07:41
know it’s confusing and I’m not trying to catch you just trying and here’s the reason I’m asking is because if you’re
1:07:48
telling me that it’s uninforcable
1:07:53
right the proliferation of this is completely uninforceable then I have a hard time understanding
1:08:00
how a band owned the products together all together
1:08:05
that’s going to be enforceable. It’ll be more easily enforceable now
1:08:10
because if it’s banned, it’s going to be legal per se. If it’s banned and you
1:08:15
know, you would hope that uh you still wouldn’t have gas stations, convenience stores, and all selling it, you know, on
1:08:22
the shelves of their businesses and and you know, the cases that you
1:08:28
have brought charges for, you said that y’all had brought charges. What was the disposition of those?
1:08:34
We’ve been successful in those cases. We’ve had, again, we have some prosecutors that feel very strong about
1:08:41
prosecuting those cases and and some that don’t feel as strong about it. And so, those were brought under that
1:08:47
statute under that code section that you were referring to.
1:08:52
And we have literally seized tractor trailer, you know, loads of these THC products.
1:09:02
And they have tested they have tested positive for marijuana and not not hemp.
1:09:11
And and that’s where it gets into that scientific part. I I understand that. But the THC is the THC regardless of
1:09:18
what plan it comes from is my understanding. Um, and so that’s, you know, I I, you know,
1:09:25
I am of the opinion that I don’t know that we’re going to be able to get our arms around it completely with a ban.
1:09:32
And and so, you know, and then that’s why I appreciated the the questions from the chairman as far as your preference
1:09:38
if we are to move forward with some type of regulation, what that needs to look
1:09:43
like. Um because I do think that we all, you know, for for me, I’m not going to speak for everyone, but but I certainly
1:09:50
want something that’s workable. I want something that is enforcable, not just something that is that is out there. I
1:09:57
want you to be able to have clear directive and all of law enforcement to have clear directives on on what we
1:10:05
expect and and to go out there and then uh crack down on those folks that aren’t following potentially whatever law we
1:10:12
put in place. And Senator, that’s what we don’t have right now. I can tell you law enforcement, uh,
1:10:18
I talked to chiefs and sheriffs and and they don’t know what to do. U, we we have we have not had consistent
1:10:26
direction and and we need that from this general assembly. And and again, u, is
1:10:33
is this my choice to to see just this bill pass and nothing else? No. Would I
1:10:39
like to see it banned? Yes. But the bottom line uh on this particular bill,
1:10:44
we need to get it out of the hands of young people as like senator from Darlington, his 15year-old uh nephew or
1:10:52
whatever being able to go in the store and buy and uh and we need to we need to
1:10:58
be able to to to make that happen. Couldn’t agree more. And and then finally, um you know, you you um you
1:11:05
touched briefly on um an issue that that I have a lot of
1:11:11
concerns and and problems with, and that’s that’s vape vape shops, smoke shops, or or whatever whatever you want
1:11:18
to call them. Chief, is there no is there, you know, like if you’re going to
1:11:23
sell liquor, you got to have an ABC, you got to have a a license or a permit for a a vape or a smoke shop. Is there no
1:11:30
higher threshold of of a requirement for a permit that they have to have than anyone else?
1:11:36
None that I know of. I mean, as long as they get a business license, uh, you know, from the community or jurisdiction
1:11:44
that they’re in. I don’t know of any other license they got to have. And and again, most of the products in those
1:11:50
shops are coming from out of state or overseas. And there’s no regulation. you
1:11:57
have no idea, no consistency where they’re being made or anything else. And and that’s what people are people are
1:12:04
taking. And and the chairman spoke of earlier and and that is an area where a lot of that is is is sold. um
1:12:14
you know, do you think that it would be easier for you to um enforce actions if
1:12:19
we did at least have some type of higher threshold for which you know a definition of what a vape shop is, a
1:12:26
definition of what a smoke shop is that then um
1:12:32
you know we could potentially get our arms around it. I think Senator, they need to be regulated because I mean they’re everywhere. I don’t have to tell you. I
1:12:38
mean, you can drive anywhere and you see them. You see the neon lights and you see the uh you know, the attraction of
1:12:45
people trying to get folks to come in. And um and again,
1:12:50
we know that uh many of the products that they’re selling in those shops are
1:12:57
are illegal and and so certainly they need to be addressed. Thank you.
1:13:03
Senator, one second. I’m going to ask Chief you had said something about
1:13:10
and I my memory may be failing me 60% of all DUI deaths maybe
1:13:15
40% that study that study shows that uh and the study again American College of
1:13:21
Surgeons over 40% of fatal crash victims had THC levels above the legal limits.
1:13:30
Let me ask you um and I’m drivers or people is that the is that the driver who
1:13:35
caused the accident or is that the people who were killed? I’m sure it’s the uh Well, it’s probably
1:13:40
those that were killed, but um it’s got here in this particular study
1:13:47
at a glance among 246 drivers who died in crashes, 41.9% had active THC in
1:13:53
their blood with an average level of 30.7 milligram. All right. So, that’s that’s the driver who
1:13:59
theoretically killed themselves because of this and of using THC. Let me ask you, Chief,
1:14:07
well, I’m going to make a comment first. Our DUI laws are terrible in South Carolina. Yes, sir. We don’t fix that.
1:14:13
It is a pox upon this legislature. And the Senate needs to take that bill up.
1:14:19
And I’ll preach to everyone up on this counter. It needs to be taken up in January. It needs to go to the House. We
1:14:24
just need to get drunk drivers off the road to South Carolina. Um, so that’s I I’ll I’ll lead with that comment, but my
1:14:32
comment to you is THC, how you pull somebody over for DUI, there are tests
1:14:38
that can be done on the side of the road to tell us, you know, to make some initial decisions.
1:14:45
What what is our control inside? You know, if someone has,
1:14:50
you know, taken the 50 mgram purple can, what happens then? I mean,
1:14:55
how do we know that? Well, some some officers are trained as drug recognition experts. Okay. So, they
1:15:02
can make some um they can use their discretion and
1:15:07
make some u obvious um based on someone’s behavior, you
1:15:13
know. Um, but the bottom line is again it’s going to take a a blood test and and
1:15:21
again I would ask my scientists would be much better available to answer that
1:15:26
question for you more detail but um but again it’s going to be blood blood or
1:15:32
urine and preferably blood and you can tell based and and chief I
1:15:37
we need to bring one of your experts back later we will but we can tell from that blood test that this is not
1:15:44
something that’s lingering in your system. This is something that you used that day or within hours.
1:15:50
Again, I would I would I would rather them answer that question. Those toxic scologist certainly. Thank you, Chief. Uh Senator
1:15:57
from York. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um and we talked a lot about the drinks, but
1:16:02
again, I want to ask a question about the the gummies because quite frankly, that’s what I’ve seen and heard more
1:16:09
about over the last year than the drinks. It was relatively new to me and
1:16:14
I started looking once I heard of it and I do I see them like a lot of places. Um
1:16:19
you know the folks that I know of in the community no cousins or anything like
1:16:25
that but uh the folks that I know that do ingest these types of products typically it’s you know say to go to
1:16:33
sleep at night or something like that and uh I don’t know what the levels are. I don’t know how they work and all that
1:16:40
other stuff, but you know, if we’ve got a 5 mgram limit and say, you know, I
1:16:48
don’t know, say it takes 20 or 25 milligrams to get the, you know,
1:16:54
necessary impact for sleep purposes. And maybe some of your scientists can, you know,
1:16:59
I think again, uh, I’m not going to try to, uh, try to be a scientist. I I would tell
1:17:06
you that I think one of our toxicologists need to answer those questions. But I would assume 5 milligrams to a child, you know, that
1:17:13
weighs 80 lbs would be much different effect than somebody who was 180 pounds
1:17:18
and had a 5 milligram drink. And this is the question I was going to ask you. would you know if
1:17:26
we’re not banning completely banning I I think I would actually probably be in favor of anything that’s not 5 milligram
1:17:33
or below being at say somewhere like a pharmacy um you know so so that it’s not you know
1:17:41
it’s not very easily obtainable you know u and so I guess if it got to that level
1:17:48
and the higher uh potency stuff was available if it’s somewhere like behind
1:17:54
the counter at a you know pharmacy would that ease your mind at least as to
1:18:00
potential issues in the future. It would anything would be better than what we have right now. Thank you sir.
1:18:07
Senator from Greenville. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Chief, the discussion up here is
1:18:12
having trouble getting around understanding which
1:18:18
the cases that you that have been successfully prosecuted and resulted in a conviction.
1:18:23
Are those involving Delta 9? Are those involving synthetics?
1:18:28
Those are involving products that test positive for marijuana. Okay. And so when the discussion of
1:18:34
earlier when you said and you got some uh feedback from your folks behind you
1:18:40
and I think you stated that that right now you’re having trouble testing this
1:18:46
or deciding what so there are many products that we have trouble testing in our lab. uh for example food products
1:18:54
are much more difficult for us to test and so again it makes it makes it very
1:19:00
difficult for us to test those particular products in our laboratory. The products that you have in front of
1:19:05
you and I can’t see the labels of the cans but the you you referenced one of them had Delta 9 on the packaging.
1:19:12
This one right here. Yep. Okay. Thank you. Has Delta 9. Would it be your contention
1:19:20
or position that that product in front of you that you just held up is illegal under South Carolina law?
1:19:26
I believe it is. And those are the ones that you’re saying are ubiquitous across the state. We bought them. We bought all these
1:19:32
products. We’ve sent our agents out and bought them for numerous hearings that we had on THC infused drinks last year.
1:19:38
So it would be your position now that law enforcement in any county could go and make an arrest based upon that?
1:19:44
They could. If again you want want to make sure that we’re going to have prosecution before we make an arrest,
1:19:50
but in a county that that where Yes. the law enforcement and prosecution are on the same page. Yes, sir.
1:19:56
So you believe any any day of the week someone who sells that could be charged? I believe it could be. Yes, sir.
1:20:01
And anyone who possesses it could be charged? That’s correct. Thank you.
1:20:13
Senator from Darlington.
1:20:19
listening to them talk, you know, as he said earlier, one question always leads to another. I’m asking for your your
1:20:26
personal opinion here. Do you see much of a difference between
1:20:31
THC and CBD products?
1:20:37
Um, well, as you know, CBD is legal in our
1:20:42
state. again if it does not I think that threshold that we we still have. Um
1:20:52
so again I’m not sure about I’m not sure
1:20:57
about the answer to that. I’m not again I would be more confident with one of our topsologist talking about that
1:21:03
question answering that question. And and I know we have we’ve sat here and we’ve talked about drinks and we’ve
1:21:09
talked about how you can get them at convenience stores and I I think uh one of my colleagues down here talked about
1:21:15
gummies earlier, but I have one of my neighbors that swears up and down by a
1:21:21
Delta 8 pain cream that he rubs on his knees. He’s not ingesting it. He’s he’s
1:21:26
not mixing up and drinking it. I I think it’s a snake oil, but that’s a personal opinion. But he swears up and down by
1:21:33
- If if if if we move down this route, are we talking about making it so he has
1:21:40
to go get his pain medication at a liquor store? Is there’s just so much more to this
1:21:45
than gummies? And I think the only thing we would be talking about getting a liquor store would be a something that you drink. uh
1:21:52
not a tincture or sav or anything such as that,
1:22:00
but something that you would ingest uh you know as a liquid.
1:22:05
So So you’re talking about something that would be used almost recreational style like something like these products right
1:22:10
here. A recreational style, not not necessarily like a Yes, sir. a pharmaceutical style. Yes, sir.
1:22:16
Thank you, sir. Chief, I want to thank you for your testimony today. If you all would please
1:22:23
make sure at our next hearing, and I don’t know when it is. If you could have perhaps some of your your experts, as
1:22:30
you’ve said, come, we’d like to have them come up and testify. I think it would help answer some of the questions
1:22:35
that the committee might have. But thank you, sir. I know they can answer them better than I can, that’s for sure. Thank you.
Christa Henson the executive director of the South Carolina Retail Association
1:22:56
Christa Henson. Christa, come on up.
1:23:04
Christ, I’m gonna swear you in like I’ve sworn everybody else in. Do you swear the testimony you’re about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
1:23:09
but the truth? I do. if you would, and I’ve been remiss in doing this, but um if you’d tell us
1:23:16
your full name and the association. Absolutely. Um well, thank you, Chairman Johnson, members of the subcommittee um
1:23:21
for having me here today. I’m Christa Henson. I’m the executive director of the South Carolina Retail Association.
1:23:26
The retail association represents a wide variety of your more traditional style retailers across the state from grocery
1:23:33
to home improvement, clothing to convenience, and pretty much everything in between. Uh the retail industry does
1:23:38
support one in every four jobs in the state and operates in every corner of South Carolina. So I know um you all
1:23:46
have a lot to consider and a big task ahead of you. So I appreciate you allowing me to speak today to provide
1:23:51
the retail perspective on this issue as as you look toward how to regulate it appropriately for the state. My
1:23:57
perspective is going to sound a little different than the last two just because I’m coming from a business perspective rather than law enforcement and um you
1:24:05
know science. So, I maybe can’t answer the specifics about CBD versus THC and all of that. Um, but I want to start by
1:24:12
saying that the retailers are very strongly supportive of reasonable
1:24:17
regulation of these products. Um, age restrictions and even as we’ve heard knowing where they’re being sold,
1:24:23
similar to how we do for beer and wine and recently y’all passed a law a couple years ago where you now know who sells
1:24:29
tobacco products too. Um, and even marketing toward children. We’ve had that conversation around vape shops and
1:24:35
and different products as well in the last couple of years. So, all of those are reasonable, responsible regulations
1:24:41
of these products that the retailers strongly support. As you consider what direction to move here on the um
1:24:47
regulation of these products, um the retailers and and myself would encourage you to take a measured and thoughtful
1:24:53
approach and to take a look at consistency. We have several age restricted and other intoxicating, if
1:24:59
you will, products that are being sold and so we would ask for consistency and efficiency across the market. Um, I
1:25:05
understand and expect that the final product that you put out may look a little different than what we have in front of us today, but because that’s
1:25:12
what we have to respond to. For example, in um section, let’s see what section
1:25:18
that is, 46-56-20, it is very very similar to our liquor
1:25:26
and our beer and wine sections of the code um in terms of age restriction to
1:25:31
- However, it is it is different in that it does not contain a provision that would um basically exempt those
1:25:39
provisions uh of underage possession from somebody who is lawfully
1:25:45
working to sell off- premises consumption, beverages or other things
1:25:51
that and we do have that language in our code for beer and wine and liquor. And so that’s an example of something where
1:25:57
we would ask for consistency. So there isn’t one process for a hemp derived consumable that is completely and
1:26:03
totally different from how we treat beer and wine and other um similar age restricted product sales. So those would
1:26:10
be an example of the consistency there as well. And we’d also ask for efficiency meaning um you know however
1:26:17
you choose to regulate these products you have big public policy decisions to to weigh and a lot of different
1:26:23
information to look at. But efficiency meaning um do what you want to do. Keep
1:26:29
these products out of the hands of children for example. Um restrict them in the way that you feel appropriate but
1:26:35
keep that um as much as possible from interfering with the otherwise fair competition between retailers for
1:26:42
example in the general marketplace. Make sure everybody’s playing by the same rules. Um, and if we’re all playing by
1:26:48
the same rules, whether that’s age restriction, um, you know, licenses, other areas where we would be, uh, have
1:26:55
parameters in place around these products, that everybody has the same set of rules and that they’re not
1:27:01
different between one type of retailer versus another. Um, retailers, particularly the ones I represent, I’ve
1:27:06
mentioned, grocerers, convenience stores, pharmacies, for example, sell age restricted products every day.
1:27:12
Lottery, tobacco, beer, wine, some of them liquor. Um, these products as far as the sale goes, the age verification
1:27:18
goes are no different. We can train, check IDs, and make a responsible sale of this product, the hemp derived
1:27:25
products the same way that you can on those other age restricted products. So, with that in mind, again, understanding
1:27:31
you have a lot of considerations to weigh. Um, but we would just ask for efficiency and consistency, fair
1:27:38
competition across the market so that um, you’re not picking winners and losers as you’re regulating these
1:27:43
products. you’re regulating the products for the good of the public and then allowing the retailers who are
1:27:49
responsibly selling them to compete appropriately. So, with all that being said, um I again
1:27:54
want to just take a take a minute to thank you for taking up this issue and allowing me to provide the retail perspective and I’ll be glad to take any
1:28:01
questions you might have. Any questions? Senator from York.
1:28:08
Thank you for being here. uh what’s y’all’s position regarding potency levels or milligrams or all that good
1:28:15
stuff? So, we don’t necessarily have a position on that regarding what is an appropriate
1:28:20
level. However, um kind of based similar to what I just said, you all will have a public policy decision to make about
1:28:26
what’s appropriate for a container to have. Um but the retail association and
1:28:31
our position would just be that that rule be applied consistently regardless of the type of retailer that you’re
1:28:37
looking at. um so that there’s not one set of rules, for example, for a grocery store and another set of rules for an
1:28:44
ABC store if both are allowed to sell the same product. Right. Thank you,
1:28:49
Senator from Greenville. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Miss Henson, maybe you said this and I’m sorry I stepped out for a minute, but do you
1:28:55
take a do you have a different position or is your position the same as to the products such as liquid products versus
1:29:02
some of the things we saw on the screen earlier? products such as products that may or may not look like
1:29:08
candy or something that appeals to a child. I didn’t touch on that specifically, but I did mention that among what we would
1:29:13
consider to be reasonable and responsible regulations could address marketing and marketing to children,
1:29:19
those sort of things. Um, as far as whether it’s a liquid or other type of
1:29:24
ingestable, um, we don’t have a position on that as an association um, at this
1:29:29
time. As far as I’m aware, those who are members of my association are those who are selling hemp derived consumables are
1:29:35
only selling them in liquid. Um, and so again, that’s sort of a a a public policy decision you all have to make
1:29:41
based on what is best for the state. But as far as we’re concerned um that we
1:29:46
don’t have a position,
1:29:53
just a couple quick reading between the lines, what you’re telling us is that you want to be able
1:30:00
to sell it in retail stores. If liquor store is going to sell it, you want to be able to sell it. And if you can sell it, you want them to be able to sell it
1:30:06
basically. Correct. Do you believe that there’s a difference between say a 3 milligram and
1:30:13
a 10 milligram that perhaps 10 milligrams should be restricted to
1:30:18
liquor stores things below that might be sold in ret at a retail level is that I
1:30:25
mean I know I’m just kind of throwing that out there to you but is has your association taken a position on
1:30:32
a there is a difference between these products as they grow in potency and should they be treated differently at
1:30:38
different levels. So, our association has taken a position on it and our position would be I’m
1:30:43
starting to sound like a broken record here, but our position would be that we would ask for consistency in the same
1:30:49
rules regardless of the type of retailer. Um, I think that with other restrictions in place, age restrictions,
1:30:56
knowing who sells these products, I think both of those would be a big part of solving the current um concerns that
1:31:02
are out there. With those type of restrictions and regulations in place, I think that a grocery store, for an
1:31:09
example, can responsibly sell a product regardless of its potency. They can
1:31:14
check the ID the same and they can sell it as responsibly as a different type of retailer.
1:31:20
Do you have a position on the milligram caps? I do not have a position other than that
1:31:25
I would ask that they be consistent across all types of retailers who are ultimately allowed to sell these
1:31:31
products.
1:31:39
Mr. Chairman and thank you, Mr. Chairman. Christa, thank you. Um, he I appreciate the chairman’s directness,
1:31:44
but it it is very similar to would your
1:31:50
would your association’s argument also be that a a normal retailer should be able to
1:31:56
sell hard liquor? So, we haven’t taken a position on that
1:32:02
since those are established laws. Um, some of the grocery stores do have liquor licenses, but currently our law
1:32:09
treats separate location though, right? Yes. Separate location, separate entrance, separate address. But our law currently, as is written, treats liquor
1:32:16
very differently than beer and wine. So, in that vein, I guess we would um support regulation of hemp derived
1:32:22
consumables more like that of beer and wine and less like that of liquor.
1:32:29
But other states have made a distinction between the it’s not necessarily the
1:32:34
potency but the um I don’t even know if that’s true. Is it is it defined as
1:32:40
potency or is it defined as just higher milligram um
1:32:47
you know higher milligram levels per drink.
1:32:52
I don’t know. I don’t know the answer to that question, but I do know other states have made policy decisions that
1:32:58
they felt like were the best for their state, and you all are tasked with doing that. Um, and I appreciate being able to
1:33:04
share the retail perspective for your consideration as you kind of weigh all of the aspects of this issue.
1:33:09
Thank you, Senator from York.
1:33:15
And Christie, you might not be able to answer this, but that just joggled my mind a little bit. Um, so you
1:33:23
know, we’re talking about milligrams consistently here, but with alcohol, a
1:33:28
lot of times it’s percentage of alcohol per volume. You know, you you buy a beer
1:33:34
and it’s 4% and it says clearly 4%. Um,
1:33:40
if we regulated it based off a percentage rather than a milligram,
1:33:45
would that potentially change your thought process on, you know, like the
1:33:51
the drinks that Cheap Kills had up here were obviously extremely strong or at least, you know, alluded to that if that
1:33:59
same percentage was spread across those same milligrams were spread across 10
1:34:04
drinks, I don’t think it’d be quite as alarming. But it’s the it’s the high it’s the concentrated levels that really
1:34:11
make that seem different the beer and the liquor percentage. You know, I do
1:34:17
think there’s a distinction if there’s going to be a high potency level or high percentage
1:34:24
in a consumable drink or whatever. I mean, would you all agree that the varying levels I mean it does change the
1:34:30
scenario to an extent, right? Sure. Yeah. And and again I think that
1:34:36
that those are all questions that you are raising that are good questions for you all to consider. I think from the
1:34:42
perspective from the retail perspective, business general uh fair competition free market perspective um we would
1:34:50
prefer to be able to play within within the same you know rules and not be put
1:34:55
at a competitive disadvantage based on well you can sell some of the products but this other store can sell all these
1:35:01
other products as well. Um, but understanding that this is we aren’t talking about cookies or apples, right?
1:35:08
That there are other policy positions and but but if y’all could sell a six-pack of the 5 milligrams but couldn’t sell a
1:35:15
single bottle that was 100 milligrams, I mean, you you would appreciate that
1:35:20
there is a there’s a distinction between those two. Yes. Uh there is a distinction between
1:35:27
those two. It does not change the age verification process or the sale process on our end. But yes, understanding that
1:35:33
there are considerations like that for you all to make. Thank you, ma’am.
1:35:39
Anybody else? Christa, thank you for testifying today.
Laura Slade Hudson, the executive director of the South Carolina Crime Victims Council.
1:35:45
Laura Hudson, Miss Hudson, come on up.
1:35:55
Edison, do you swear the testimony you’re about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Thank you, sir. Yeah. Thank you, ma’am.
1:36:01
You give us your name and the association you’re with today. My name is Laura Slade Hudson, and I am
1:36:07
the executive director of the South Carolina Crime Victims Council.
1:36:13
I’m here to speak against the bill. As it now written, I would like to have it a total ban. That’s simpler.
1:36:21
It would be also probably uh timely to wait on what the feds do to for have it
1:36:29
banned. Uh I’m on the child um fatality committee
1:36:35
and I see parenting under the influence very heavily
1:36:40
um in the deaths of children. I also uh am with Mothers Against Drunk
1:36:47
Driving and see a lot of death from impairment of THC and alcohol,
1:36:53
especially mixed. Um Chairman, I really appreciate your
1:36:58
remarks about U Senate 52, the DUI bill. Um
1:37:06
hopefully, you know, from your mouth to God’s ear that that’ll take place. Uh in
1:37:13
that bill there is a suggestion that we do blood draw um in lie of um um our
1:37:22
data master and I’m in support of that because there are a lot of other drugs that influence people in their driving.
1:37:30
We are the laughingstock of the state you know coalitions that we have the
1:37:35
weakest DUI law in the United States. We have huge amounts of fatalities. We’re
1:37:42
already 700 plus this year and deaths on our highway.
1:37:47
Um I’m coming at this whole issue from the standpoint of public safety. Um,
1:37:54
I’ve been speaking against the legalization and of marijuana since 2014
1:37:59
along with Chief Keel and u I would just say what he said
1:38:06
about uh the concerns for law enforcement, the concerns for for our public safety. Um it’s um
1:38:15
laughable to me to hear people say we need to regulate
1:38:21
um THC like we do alcohol. I’m reminded of the commentary from from uh Dr. Phil
1:38:30
when someone would come on with an unusually nitwitty job, you know, idea and he’d say, “How’s that working for
1:38:36
you, buddy?” Our alcohol regulation is a laughingstock.
1:38:41
Um, we have the fox um, guarding the hen house with the department of revenue,
1:38:47
keeping up with who’s selling to this and who’s selling there and whether we want to, you know, revoke their license
1:38:54
or suspend it. I mean, it’s just ridiculous how we do not regulate alcohol. Why on earth would we want to
1:39:02
regulate THC in the same manner? That’s just a joke that doesn’t even need to be
1:39:09
considered. So, I would be supportive of an outright ban. Are there any
1:39:14
questions?
1:39:22
Sorry, I’m just trying not to choke to death up here. Um, any any questions for Miss Hudson?
1:39:29
Senator from Calhoun. Sorry.
1:39:35
It’s not really a question, Mr. chairman, but I just couldn’t resist the opportunity to talk to my friend, Miss Hudson, now that you have thoroughly
1:39:41
scared everyone up here, Laura. Um, we are acquaintances at best
1:39:49
at this point. I’ll take that. I’ll take it.
1:39:54
[Laughter] Help me understand, Laura. Seriously.
1:40:00
And um I can appreciate uh I can appreciate
1:40:06
your supporting a ban and I get that should a ban not be feasible,
1:40:15
you would certainly encourage and support a framework for regulation around the
1:40:21
product. Correct. Maybe depends on what it is.
1:40:30
So, what about what we’re looking at right now? And that and that’s all I want. That’s what I’m asking you is um
1:40:37
and and I get I’m not trying to say that you are supportive of the regulations, but it’s a hypothetical. If the ban if
1:40:46
there’s not enough support to completely ban the product next year, then what do
1:40:53
you see as good or problematic with what we’re looking at in front of us right
1:40:58
now? Well, if you adopt
1:41:03
banning it from those under 21, then you are saying it’s legal for adults. So, I
1:41:10
can’t support that.
1:41:16
So then you’re opposed to any regulation whatsoever. Yes, sir. I think the only way to go is
1:41:22
with the ban. Is that and I understand I mean I get that but but saying that you’re opposed to regulation is turning a blind eye to
1:41:30
what is happening on the ground right now. All I smell is money.
1:41:38
I haven’t smelled that in a long time. Thank you. Pleased to hear that.
1:41:47
Laura, thank you for your testimony today. Thank you.
Rick Reames III with the law firm of Maynard Nexsen representing a number of large distributors and retailers
1:41:53
Rick Reams. Rick, come on up.
1:41:59
Rick, if you raise your right hand for me. Do you swear the testimony you’re about to give will be the truth, the
1:42:05
whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. you’d give us uh again your full name and a group you’re here with.
1:42:12
Sure. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Although I’m not sure how I got to follow Lara. So, uh I guess I just signed up at the
1:42:18
wrong time. But this is Rick. I’m Rick Reams. I’m with I’m a tax attorney with the law firm of Mayor Nex. And I am here
1:42:25
because I represent a number of large uh distributors and retailers who are interested in this this space
1:42:31
particularly in the uh or exclusively really in the beverage world. So glad to
1:42:37
be with you. Appreciate y’all uh y’all meeting in in out of session in your part-time job. Uh it was helpful to hear
1:42:45
some national perspective on this and I may be able to give you uh a little state specific history and perspective
1:42:52
on this. By the way, for those of you who don’t know me, I’m the immediate past director of the South Carolina Department of Revenue. And so, uh, I say
1:42:59
that not because I want to talk about myself, but because it’ll give you a little perspective on my experience with
1:43:05
this and my history with with regulated products. And I was involved on the
1:43:10
House side uh, with this legislation last session. And while I certainly do
1:43:17
not speak for the House, I’ll tell you the way it was described to me is the bill that’s in your subcommittee, Mr.
1:43:23
Chairman, and other members, uh, was was described as the emergency bill to to to
1:43:28
get it out of the house and keep these products out of the hands of those 21 and under, which of of course is
1:43:34
desperately needed and all of my folks and and clients would would absolutely support. Uh but in listening to the the
1:43:42
the prior testimony here, it it’s occurred to me that uh that there is an
1:43:49
option to solve most if not all of the concerns that
1:43:54
have been raised here and that’s with full regulation. And there are other bills that are in the House and I and I call your attention particularly to 404
1:44:02
which essentially treats the uh these these hemp derived beverages and throws
1:44:07
them as alcohol and throws them into the three- tier system. And uh that solves
1:44:13
the public safety component of it. That solves the lensure and the testing
1:44:19
portion of it. And it solves the tax portion of it. And and so while you can
1:44:26
certainly criticize alcohol regulation in the country, the three- tier system has a hundred years of history behind it
1:44:32
and is done in virtually every state. And so the platform does exist to solve
1:44:38
the concerns that we have heard here today from from many of the members here and and those testifying uh should a ban
1:44:45
not be uh moving forward. So uh there’s a there’s a lot I can say. I’ll pause
1:44:51
there because it’s not good for uh for a lawyer to talk more than he needs to, but I’ll pause there for any questions
1:44:58
and then uh maybe make a few more points depending on the the type of questions we get.
1:45:06
You may want to make those points. I guess I covered it all so well that
1:45:11
there’s no questions. Uh so so uh the point one of the points being the
1:45:18
products that Chief Keel and by the way Chief Keel and I go back a ways when from my days as DO have great respect
1:45:23
from him. The products that he brought here none of the reputable players in
1:45:29
this industry are selling the they are not selling 60 mgram cans. they are not
1:45:35
selling the the the flour and the smokables and the and so a full
1:45:40
regulatory scheme as I mentioned before will take care of that and enable the
1:45:45
responsible players to sell products that are in the the range of 5 to 10
1:45:50
milligram cans in a licensed location manufactured by a licensed location
1:45:57
distributed by a licensed location sold to a consumer in a licensed location. So
1:46:03
all of that can can can be addressed and the public safety and the rest of the concerns flow out of that.
1:46:11
Well, now I’m gonna ask questions. Um
1:46:20
you’re representing Southern Crown. Southern Crown’s one of my clients. That’s correct.
1:46:25
It’s one on the sheet side. I’m I’m going bring that up. Do you all have a position or do you
1:46:30
have a position on on premises versus off- premises consumption? I think uh I think the position of of of
1:46:38
those players in the industry like them would be that you treat it like alcohol and if an on- premise licensed retail uh
1:46:46
location obtains the appropriate licenses that they would be eligible to sell it. You have a position on milligrams. I
1:46:54
think what you’ll find is the the 10 milligram and less are what most reputable players in this field would
1:47:01
want. Have I We’re going Let’s just go down the list of the regulations. I mean,
1:47:07
obviously you’re good for uh 21 and over. Put it under the three tier system. Uh treat it like wine and
1:47:13
liquor. How about um on premises 3 milligrams?
1:47:19
uh sea stores, liquor stores, any position on, you know, where it should be sold?
1:47:27
So, I I you know, certainly open for debate and discussion on that. I think we would echo the the thoughts that uh
1:47:34
as as much of a level playing field and an open market as is reasonably possible
1:47:40
in a highly regulated product. Uh so, I hear that and I I don’t mean to cut
1:47:45
you off, but that means sell it everywhere. Sell at sea stores, sell at liquor store because I want to be I want
1:47:50
to make because we say fair and and level, but what we really mean is sea stores, grocery store, any retailer and
1:47:57
liquor stores could sell it. Correct. If they obtain the licenses and the beauty of of putting it in a three-
1:48:03
tier system is that they have the background checks and they have the good moral character requirements and they have all of the the background uh that
1:48:10
they must pass in order to get that license. So, if they’re able to get a license and they’re able to keep it
1:48:15
current by doing all of the things that the regulatory authorities require them to do, then we would say yes, they
1:48:20
should be able to sell it. How about a position on the uh the Delta 8 and 10, the synthetics?
1:48:26
Yeah, I would be fine with banning those.
1:48:32
I think that covers the highlights. Um, any anybody else? Senator from York. So,
1:48:38
you know, very similar scenario that I gave to Christa. And obviously, I think, you know, y’all are probably going to be
1:48:44
aligned here, but again, a six-pack of threes is different than a single 100
1:48:50
mgram deal. I mean I you know do you think it would be fair to require
1:48:56
that you know only ABC stores once you get to a certain percentage potency wise
1:49:04
that those stores cuz those stores do have a little bit different
1:49:10
access you know probably other you know licenses and things of that nature but
1:49:16
the access to the the highest levels of intoxicants at least in a, you know,
1:49:22
single u ingestable, you know, can or bottle or whatever. I
1:49:30
mean, do you I just feel like y’all have to believe it’s reasonable that once you reach some level where you haven’t
1:49:36
consumed multiple drinks or gummies or whatever else that it’s some level,
1:49:42
there has to be another step, another tier. Um it it
1:49:48
well clearly that’s what the alcohol system does. Correct. I mean you know you have a heightened lensure
1:49:54
requirement for liquor stores versus beer and wine permitted retail locations. And so what you’re suggesting
1:50:02
I think is to follow that or would it make sense to follow that model with these products in higher amounts? And I
1:50:09
think certainly there is a platform to do that and and it does make some sense.
1:50:14
And and so what about um
1:50:20
again I you know is is in my mind I’m trying to wrap how to make this workable
1:50:26
for the everyday South Carolinian. And and again, I keep going back to the folks that are using it for therapeutic
1:50:33
reasons or not even therapeutic. I guess using it for medical reasons, whether it’s sleep, pain, go down the line. You
1:50:41
know what I mean? Um, you know, I don’t know that it’s completely appropriate
1:50:46
for those to be in the local convenience store rather than a place like a pharmacy or a grocery store. You know,
1:50:51
most grocery stores these days havearmacies. uh Walmarts,armacies, you know, I mean, a lot of the big
1:50:57
retailers um you know, would you all agree with that position?
1:51:04
Well, it’s an interesting point you make and and I’ll tell you what our folks are seeing is that their customers are
1:51:10
asking for it in the grocery stores. And you know, interestingly enough, we heard that a lot of the customers are are uh
1:51:16
female suburban mom types. The customers are also senior citizens. in Indianland,
1:51:22
South Carolina, for example, some of the retail stores there are stacked deep with these products because uh because
1:51:28
the senior living communities around there are buying them. And so I think what you’ll find is they are asking for
1:51:33
them at the most readily accessible point of sale. But you ra you raised a good point. Well, but but they’re not putting them
1:51:39
on the the serial aisle either, right? I mean, I I imagine they’re going to be in the pharmacy side or somewhere in a
1:51:47
designated area of a store that’s not necessarily, you know, again, because
1:51:53
y’all are not trying to, you know, catch kids up in this or, you know, predatorily package these items and all
1:52:00
this other stuff. You want it to be very clear and concise of what the product is. It’s not in the candy aisle or
1:52:06
something like that. that it’s in its own little section or that’s theoretically where I see this going if
1:52:13
it is regulated rather than banned very conspicuously you know singled out compared to other
1:52:19
items. Correct. Y’all be fine with Absolutely. All right. Thank you, sir. Yeah. Thank you. And
1:52:27
thank you, Rick. Mr. Chairman, if I could make one more point. Sorry. Uh I failed to mention when I talked about the history. Uh so I
1:52:34
the members may be aware but uh there is an attorney general opinion that was issued in September of 24 that was
1:52:40
issued to Merl Smith as speaker of the house wi in which the attorney general’s office opined that these products are
1:52:48
legal in South Carolina but federally under the farm bill and in South Carolina. Uh that opinion I’ll call your
1:52:55
attention to it September of of of 24. uh recognized that the products are
1:53:01
legal under federal law and under state law and invited regulation
1:53:07
because of the legality and no current regulation. So I’ll sort of leave Senator Elliott and and Senator I were
1:53:13
asking questions about the legality. Uh to the extent you haven’t read it, I call your attention to it.
1:53:18
And George, I would ask you to get that opinion and circulate it amongst the members of this committee so we can all
1:53:24
read it for ourselves. Now you’ve opened the door. Senator from
1:53:29
York. No, this I thought I was off the hot seat, Senator. So I could tell you’ve done your research really and this is just, you
1:53:36
know, I was trying to figure it out on my phone and you might not know the answer either. Maybe the sled experts
1:53:42
can later. I’m just curious how many typical hemp
1:53:48
plants it takes to get to one typical marijuana plant. I mean, I I’m just
1:53:53
curious like is it 10? Is it a 100? I mean, you know, to get to the level of
1:53:58
concentration that you need to equate to one merit. I’m just curious. Yeah. Sen Senator, you I do not know the
1:54:05
answer to that, but I would imagine that someone from the industry or some of the trade associations can probably comment on that at a next hearing and we would
1:54:12
be welcome to give you that information, I would imagine, but I certainly do not know the science behind that piece of it.
1:54:17
Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. Thank you.
1:54:23
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
April Bird with Connect South, a public policy firm working with American Healthy AlternativesSouth Carolina and North Carolina chapters since 2022
1:54:33
April Bird. April. And just for the committee’s knowledge,
1:54:40
I have the the AG’s opinion’s been given to me. It’s 12 pages. I’m not going to
1:54:45
try to scan it while we’re doing this, but certainly it will be everybody will get a copy before we’re before you leave
1:54:50
today. I’ll just email it to them and they’ll email it to you. There you are. Save the truth. Miss Bird, how are you? Please raise
1:54:56
your right hand. Do you swear the testimony you’re about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. Thank you, ma’am. If you’ll give us your
1:55:03
full name and association. My name is April Bird. I’m a partner with Connect South, a public policy
1:55:09
firm, and I’ve been working with American Healthy Alternatives, their South Carolina, North Carolina chapter,
1:55:15
since 2022. Go ahead. Can you say that again, please? Who who
1:55:21
you’re with? I’m a partner with Connect South, which is a public policy firm, and I’ve been
1:55:27
consulting with American Healthy Alternatives Association in their South Carolina and North Carolina chapter
1:55:33
since 2022.
1:55:40
So, American Healthy Alternatives Association is an industry association that is comprised of hemp cultivators,
1:55:46
manufacturers, distributors, testing facilities, and retailers. So it covers all aspects of the hemp industry. In
1:55:54
2022, American Healthy Alternatives Association saw a need for states to take action to sensibly regulate hemp
1:56:01
derived consumable products as the industry was seeing an uptick of bad actors in the space that was putting
1:56:08
communities and consumers at risk. AHA began having American Healthy
1:56:14
Alternatives Association be began having conversations and presenting model legislation in South Carolina along with
1:56:21
over a dozen states throughout the country that would address the areas members of the association
1:56:28
believed to be essential to protect the consumer, protect product to keep products out of the hands of children
1:56:34
and remove the bad actors from the marketplace. House Bill 3925 3924 that we are
1:56:41
discussing today is a good start as it does cons contain an age restriction for the sales of products to 21 and over.
1:56:49
However, the industry would like to see the South South Carolina consider additional regulations to fully protect
1:56:54
consumers, keep the products out of the hands of children, and get the bad actors out of the marketplace. These
1:57:01
additional regulations that the industry would like to see considered include childproof packaging, required labeling
1:57:08
that clearly shows what is contained within the product and where the product was made. Third part third thirdparty
1:57:14
testing requirements that includes COAs for all products that are being sold. Licensing for manufacturers,
1:57:21
distributors, and retailers along with a taxing structure for products being sold
1:57:26
in the state. American Healthy Alternatives supports comprehensive regulations that puts the safety of
1:57:32
consumers and children first, protects the good stewards of the industry, and removes the bad actors from the market
1:57:38
space. And I’m happy to answer any questions to the best that I can.
1:57:46
I think you’re going to catch a break. No questions. Thank you, ma’am. Thank y’all.
1:57:52
It’s been about two hours. I’m h I’m happy to kind of push on. There’s uh one
1:57:59
about three witnesses left or we can take a little five minute break. I’ll y’all have a desire either way.
1:58:06
Well, then let’s move forward.
Michael Fields, director for the South Carolina Petroleum and Convenience Marketers Association
1:58:12
Michael Fields
1:58:19
would raise your right hand. Do you swear the testimony you’re about to give be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Sure, I do.
1:58:24
Thank you, sir. If you’ll give us your name and the association. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, members of
1:58:29
the subcommittee, I’m Michael Fields, director for the South Carolina Petroleum and Convenience Marketers
1:58:34
Association. Uh, we used to be two separate organizations. In 2020, we merged uh to form uh one organization
1:58:42
and obviously I’m here today um to speak on the retail side. I I don’t want to
1:58:48
frustrate you and repeat a lot of what Mrs. Henson said. So, a lot of our testimony is the same. a lot of the answers to your questions are going to
1:58:55
be a lot of the same. I I will tell you that our board has given me um
1:59:02
I’ll just tell you what the the motion was that they adopted. Um that we would work with you to find appropriate and
1:59:08
reasonable guard rails. That’s broad. It is. But it gives me the ability to sit
1:59:14
in a room with you and your staff and and and come up to what what that is. Um, Chairman Johnson, you started the
1:59:21
hearing of talking about bills, a lot of other issues, and the same questions that you have are the same questions
1:59:29
that my members are having, and they’re asking me. I mean, what what we need is
1:59:34
um, and appreciate this this guidance and the clarity, and we’ve talked about
1:59:40
this when we were doing the vapor directory bill. Our members want a a clear target that they can hit. Um, and
1:59:47
right now there’s we can’t answer a question. I bet you I’ve told them so
1:59:53
many times I don’t know the answer to your question. I I I send them to the attorney general’s uh opinion that I
2:00:00
sent to them which says 12 pages worth of things, but basically y’all need to
2:00:06
get in a room and and put together a framework for regulation. And so my
2:00:11
organization wants to help you do that. Um, and I’m willing to do that. I’ve I’ve got some members that are very
2:00:17
interested in this. I’ve got some that are waiting to see that that clarity uh
2:00:23
because there are too many questions in their own mind whether they want to get in this in the the category or not. Um
2:00:30
and so I think that’s my offer to you is that I’m willing I I want to sit down
2:00:35
with you. Uh I want to make sure that we have the ability um to regulate and and and to sell the product. Our our
2:00:42
members, y’all know them. Um they’re they’re in your districts. They’re they’re your people. Um, we check a lot
2:00:49
of IDs in the convenience store industry. Nationally, we check 4 and a.5 million a day.
2:00:58
That’s more than the TSA checks. Um, so we’re doing that. You know, we talk
2:01:04
about bad actors. There are bad actors in every single industry out there. I’m
2:01:10
sure there are some in ours. Mrs. Henson’s association and my association partnered with the general
2:01:16
assembly to work um to increase penalties for bad actors on on the tobacco side. Um so, you know, we’ve
2:01:26
proven that we want to work with you on this um on on in other areas and we want to let you know that we’re willing to do
2:01:32
that as well. So, I don’t want to frustrate you, Senator, by answering the questions the same way, but they have
2:01:38
given me that leeway to to work with you on on on the specific questions that you’ve been asking.
2:01:46
I’m going to go I’m going to ask the same ask. All right, let me get my answer. Are you all right with banning eight and
2:01:52
10? Senator, I I’m not smart enough to know any of that stuff. I’m going to sit back
2:01:58
and listen to to Chief Kill’s um uh experts on that as well. Um
2:02:04
let me ask you more pointed. Will your association um argue against a ban on 8 and 10?
2:02:12
Not at this time. No, sir. I mean again I I don’t want to Senator I don’t want to frustrate you. I mean, our our our position is that we
2:02:19
we’re going to work with you on those reasonable guard rails for this for this product and and this category
2:02:25
and that would include So, I’m assuming you don’t have a position as of today on milligram limits, but you’re willing to
2:02:31
work with us to Absolutely. and the same verse uh where it could be
2:02:36
sold, all stores versus liquor stores. Yes, sir. I mean, I I mean, obviously, you know, I represent the convenience store industry. I mean, we we we want to
2:02:43
be able to sell the product if it’s a legal product to be sold. Yes sir.
2:02:48
And you your association would agree that if it is not banned that it should
2:02:53
be regulated and that the three tier system as it exists would be a good
2:03:00
starting point to plug and play this into from just from a standpoint of full
2:03:06
regulation. Do is in charge of it. SLED has enforcement. I mean that kind of
2:03:12
we we are absolutely looking for clarity and regulation in this category. Yes, sir. Absolutely.
2:03:18
Anybody? Senator from Greenville. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh Mr. Fields,
2:03:25
obviously your association gave you the authority to pass a resolution or a
2:03:30
directive as you read to us. Yes, sir. Is there a difference in opinions within
2:03:37
your association as to whether the product should be sold or not? Yes, sir.
2:03:42
And you do you represent convenience stores in all 46 counties?
2:03:47
Yes, sir. Do you if you know uh do you have members in each of the 46 counties that
2:03:54
currently sell the product? I don’t know the answer to that question, Senator. I I I don’t. Um you
2:03:59
know, I will I will tell you this, the the board vote wasn’t unanimous. Um it was it was overwhelming but it
2:04:05
wasn’t unanimous. Um you know there that’s just that’s not unusual for my people um to
2:04:13
always we we we don’t have unanimous votes a lot like the Senate sometimes.
2:04:19
Thank you. Thank you sir. Thank y’all.
Matt Mitchell with Hemp and Barrel and also a part of the American Healthy Alternatives Association
2:04:26
All right. Matt Mitchell.
2:04:34
- Mitchell, if you’ll raise your right hand, do you swear the testimony you’re about to give will be the truth, the
2:04:39
whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Thank you, sir. If you give us your name and the
2:04:44
association or business you’re with, Matt Mitchell, and I am with Hemp and Barrel and also a part of American
2:04:52
Healthy Alternative. Um, first of all, with it being Veterans
2:04:57
Day, I would be remiss if I didn’t say anybody veterans here, thank you for your service. We wouldn’t all be here if
2:05:02
it wasn’t for y’all. So, get that out there. Um, own a retail store uh in
2:05:08
Pineville, North Carolina. Grew up in Rutherton. So, been Spartanberg and Greenville the lot of my life. Go to the
2:05:15
mall. Uh, so um also have a grow small
2:05:21
grow in Spindell, North Carolina. So I’m familiar and been doing every all this
2:05:26
all aspects of it since 2019 uh shortly after the farm bill started. Um I
2:05:34
definitely think there is a framework to accomplish every single thing that we’re talking about. Um on the beverage with
2:05:43
hemp and barrel that was my whole thing opening that was to infuse at that point
2:05:49
in time I thought beer or wine. Um, and then this kind of opened up. I uh
2:05:54
originally started um with some Delta 8 infused products as far as you don’t
2:06:00
really see that very much in the the beverage anymore. Um and uh have
2:06:09
restricted access. So, you have to, you know, enter a driver’s license or scan
2:06:14
your driver’s license before you’re let into my establishment. that originally
2:06:20
came from um a lot of younger people work for me. I’ve had an insurance
2:06:25
business for 22 years and uh have 23 locations there in North Carolina and
2:06:31
just felt like it was better to protect them. Somebody they didn’t want to let in, don’t have to let them in. That has
2:06:37
now kind of set a model that I think would work great for a lot of establishments. Um, but I’d be willing
2:06:45
to answer. There’s so many questions as y’all answered that I thought I might could could shed some insight on what
2:06:52
I’ve seen as far as consumer, not necessarily behavior, but I only have one location and that’s because of
2:06:59
education. I don’t feel like I’m equipped to provide the service and the
2:07:06
the experience at a multi-level location. Um, and I like to be involved
2:07:11
and so I get a lot of feedback um, from the consumers that um, you know, come
2:07:16
across the line. Um, like I said, I live in Fort Mill. So, um, be welcome to any
2:07:22
questions that you have on potency or or delta 8 and delta 10 as well to kind of shed some light on that.
2:07:29
Any questions? Senator from York. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, you you
2:07:34
said that your your store is based out of Pineville, North Carolina. Yes, sir. Right. just across the border.
2:07:39
Correct. How many South Carolinians you see? A bunch. A bunch. I figured it, it’s about, you
2:07:46
know, it’s funny because our, you know, some of us, I’m not a border uh senator,
2:07:53
but the chairman is and uh we see a lot of crossover between North Carolina and
2:07:58
South Carolina. And uh to describe your business model for me because I don’t
2:08:04
know that really. So, so we started as a CBD store, right? Um I grew CBD there in Lake Lure. Um and
2:08:11
we infused I mean we we extracted made tinctures. That’s all we had. Teachers
2:08:16
and cream is what we started with. And then as you see more products develop um
2:08:21
you know flour is one reason I didn’t move into North Carolina. I mean South Carolina with with any type of thing you
2:08:28
know right there in York. Um but uh
2:08:33
restricted access. you need to be 21 to come in and we sell gummies, drinks, um,
2:08:40
and everything you can, you know, in a respectable, you know, most of my products are are North Carolina based.
2:08:47
There’s a lot of stuff that’s made in North Carolina, South Carolina. Um, and so I try to do as much, but there’s some
2:08:54
out there that are national brands that that people are looking for. And did you say that you manufacture any
2:09:01
products yourself? We do. We do. Is that still just the creams and such or is that the drinks
2:09:07
now? Um, we we make a little bit of everything, you know, not some of it has
2:09:12
has even become a retail product yet of more of understanding all the aspects of
2:09:18
it to what it’s what it’s doing. A lot of this conversation and why we can’t
2:09:23
figure out exactly milligram wise that nobody could really give you it’s an
2:09:28
absorption, right? So you know um you have an endockinabonoid system right? So
2:09:34
the way these molecules attach and bind um and cause euphoric it’s not really
2:09:40
intoxicating right it’s not toxic but back to the point that’s when you see
2:09:47
everybody’s absorption is a little different. It binds a little different. You’re going to have a different reaction. There is some tolerance
2:09:54
probably, but studies need to be done to to see to nail that down. But
2:10:01
so when and that brings up a good point. So is your belief at least um that
2:10:09
absorption like through a cream has a different impact or effect on you than
2:10:15
consumption of the product? Okay. Yes, sir. All right. So, you know, if somebody’s
2:10:22
knees hurt and the farmer next door to JD over there is rubbing, you know, THC
2:10:28
cream on himself, that’s not going to intoxicate him. Is it or is it? I don’t
2:10:33
know. I’ve not seen anybody be intoxicate or, you know, have euphoric effects from a
2:10:40
cream. No. Correct. So, it’s generally just ingesting it that creates that. Yes, sir.
2:10:45
Okay. Yes, sir. I don’t have any further questions. Thank you, Mr.
2:10:51
Mr. Mr. Mitchell, I’m going to ask a couple questions. You may not be able to answer them and you you kind of just
2:10:57
talked about milligrams as absorption. Very first witness I said, hey, if you
2:11:04
you drink a 3 milligram, is that the equivalent of a beer? Is it two beers? What is it? Um, can you answer that or
2:11:12
is that just outside of our knowledge? Not really. I mean I mean so you all I
2:11:17
can tell you is consumer behavior and experience and feedback I’ve gotten over the past six years right so you know um
2:11:26
I would feel very comfortable in if somebody came in and was looking for hey
2:11:32
I’ve been hearing about this I saw it on the internet blah blah blah 2.5 or 5
2:11:37
milligram should be okay for almost everyone that is inexperienced or or
2:11:43
whatever from what I’ve seen Right. Um, and then I do see on top of that
2:11:50
somebody being able to consume 100 mgram
2:11:55
and not being totally out of their mind, ridiculous or whatever. Now, it’s not me, right? I little bit about that much
2:12:03
of a 50 milligram and I was like, whoa, that’s I’m good. So, I think you’re
2:12:09
going to have outliers and all that, right? But I think for the most part when we’re talking about trying to to to
2:12:17
put something out there that’s safe and for everyone the lower milligrams and
2:12:22
the increase you would see I don’t know that you can equate it exactly a six-pack of beer you know I
2:12:31
mean are we saying that most people get drunk off a six-pack then I would say you know four five milligrams or or you
2:12:40
know 40 milligrams 50 milligrams with poly would be equivalent to that.
2:12:49
So, let me ask you this. If we said that we’re going to
2:12:56
Please, nobody I’m just throwing an example out everybody because I’ll hear about it tomorrow. It’s tough. If I, you
2:13:01
know, can’t make everybody happy, Senator say that we’re just not going to allow you to we’re not going to sell
2:13:07
anything over 10 milligrams. But if you drank three of them, you’ve ingested 15 milligrams, right?
2:13:15
Is 30. No. No. Three fives. I’m sorry. Three. You said my math is is in my
2:13:22
I went to Western. It’s okay, buddy. My My three milligram three three 12 ounces at 5 milligrams each.
2:13:30
Could you not just if you wanted to have a 50 milligram,
2:13:35
you could just drink 510. Correct. Yes, sir. I I think where the it becomes a little problematic with that is there
2:13:42
are people that make bottles, right? And so they have or I have one that is a
2:13:51
concentrated bottle, right? So then they could pump and get 10 milligram and make
2:13:57
them a mocktail, right? And have that behind their bar. So if you said, “Well, we can only do so much.” That’s why the
2:14:05
per serving comes in, right? Um, you know, and somebody might say, well, not
2:14:10
a lot of these cans were nationally that he was saying broken down per serving
2:14:16
because there are states that have regulations on a per serving cap, right?
2:14:21
If it was if it was just all 12 ounce cans, I think what you’re saying would be correct. But there’s a there’s a lot
2:14:28
of them that do bottles to where they’re making a drink themselves,
2:14:34
more like liquor. Does it make sense to you as someone who you’re actively
2:14:39
selling these types of products? Does it make sense to you that if we’re going to allow over a certain limit that it
2:14:46
should be sold in a bottle like a liquor bottle and not in a can? Because a 12
2:14:52
ounce can begs the question of I should drink the 12 ounce can. I mean, if I’m
2:14:57
at a if I am at a party and I pick up a can, I’m my first thought is, oh,
2:15:03
there’s not six doses in this. there’s not 10 doses and there’s one round of this um where if I pick up a bottle of
2:15:10
liquor then I totally understand that that that is not appropriate that I
2:15:16
drink the entire bottle of liquor that day and so I’m trying to differentiate between these two things and so does it
2:15:23
make more sense that if we’re going to do three to five you know that some of these that there has to be there at some
2:15:28
point there ought to be a milligram cut off in how it is presented to the public
2:15:33
whether it be in large bottles or cans. I I think that would would make sense if
2:15:40
you did it, you know, like most of the bottles are going to be 750 milliliters that are the bottle, right? So, if you
2:15:45
if you went with a 12 fluid ounce cap, I
2:15:50
think most everybody in the industry would understand that and be okay with it. You know, I I think you’re still
2:15:56
missing out on some that their absorption is not as great or they’re high or tolerance, but we’re talking
2:16:01
about in general. So, yes. Anybody else? Senator from York.
2:16:07
All right. So, um, and you know, this kind of falls in line with the
2:16:12
chairman’s line of question on, you know, you said something about a
2:16:18
six-pack of beer, right? Um, I don’t know, two or three beers, most people
2:16:24
start feeling some effect, right? Um, where is that typically with milligrams?
2:16:32
you know, everybody wants to kind of relate it to something and it and it’s just it’s not that easy. But if we’re
2:16:39
going to go in general, right, because that’s what we’re that’s what we’re doing, right? Um I I think it can be very similar to a
2:16:47
5 mgram to uh but I mean, you know, you got what if you’re talking about a IPA
2:16:53
or something like that. That’s a you know, so let’s go with domestic Bud Light Village.
2:16:59
We’re going with coolers light standard. Yeah. light canned 5 mgram THC
2:17:06
for in general you’re going to look you’re going to get roughly the same I would I would I’ve seen
2:17:12
per per can or after two or three would be a quick no I would say can to can to can
2:17:18
okay I’ll give you for instance I went to a well let me ask you this too because there’s a a delay effect right um and
2:17:27
that that’s where my concern is mainly with the drivers on the roads. Okay. Uh
2:17:33
Senator Johnson is 100% correct about our DUI laws and I look forward to us
2:17:38
addressing that in the near future. Um where we add an impairment on a delay
2:17:45
standpoint from the the time you finish that 5 milligram
2:17:50
drink to the time that you’re actually feeling the effect. Is it 10 minutes,
2:17:55
half an hour, an hour? I mean, generally speaking, and I know this is not, you know, this is this is just your
2:18:01
experience of being around the product. So, so the way that it’s made is a smaller molecule when they put it in a
2:18:06
liquid. So, that will be absorbed faster. So, you see a lot of delays and
2:18:14
you hear all the people talk about a gummy. Well, I didn’t feel nothing so I ate another one. And you know that then
2:18:20
they’re really messed up, right? The drinks are a little bit faster. I don’t
2:18:25
know if it would be the same as alcohol, but it’s definitely one of the fastest
2:18:30
ways to get it into your bloodstream other than smoking it versus a gummy.
2:18:35
You’re not going to see and and then again when you have the really good actors that that’s what they’re doing.
2:18:41
They’re the emulsation is is better absorbed, cleaner, so you see it.
2:18:48
So you just brought a a whole new can of worms smoking it, right?
2:18:53
Right. Uh, we talked about all the ingestables today, right? We hadn’t talked about these pins. We
2:19:00
hadn’t talked about, you know, the the other the smokable
2:19:06
THC 9 or eights or 10 or any of that other stuff, right? I mean, all that
2:19:12
when you hear about a vape pin with THC, that’s legit, right? I mean, it’s either a 8 n or 10 um derived from either hemp
2:19:21
or CBD, I imagine. Correct. Correct. Is that correct? It is. So,
2:19:29
so I guess what I’m getting at is um and we got all the retailers here and a lot
2:19:35
of pressure in the room. Um you know, we have to address that as well, right? I
2:19:44
mean, I, you know, if we’re talking about addressing the drinks, the gummies, the I mean, at some point, we
2:19:51
have to address the smokable THC. Well, having everybody be 21 is is
2:19:59
the is the number one thing. I I I personally believe if you if we could
2:20:04
get it away from all the children, right? Anything that you’re going to
2:20:09
hear is going to be that adult chose to do that and would have done it with
2:20:16
anything that’s out there. He was just irresponsible as a person. So, you know,
2:20:21
children, you get it. You eliminate that. I think you eliminate a lot of the issues that you’re seeing in your
2:20:27
districts. Oh, I agree. I agree. I I in fact I talked to a superintendent ofu schools
2:20:33
on the way down here today and u she asked me what I was coming to do and she said yes please address that. Um and so
2:20:40
because like you said it’s it’s you know the kids are using whether it’s being legally sold or not. I mean you know
2:20:47
they’re still smoking illegal marijuana too, right? I mean u but with the the
2:20:53
vapes or the pins or what are they sold in dosages as well? Is that how that
2:20:59
works? I know. I know. It’s more of a of an adult consumption.
2:21:05
And with the smokable, you know where you’re at almost instantaneously. So the
2:21:12
euphoria that everybody’s looking for when taking these products, you know
2:21:18
where that is almost instantly, right? So you so you hit your pin once or twice
2:21:26
and then you know I’m good, right? You you might and and it’s because it enters
2:21:31
your bloodstream and you have it in there as fast. But is the pen like is each hit worth
2:21:38
five milligrams or how much is in a pin? You see what I’m saying? Yeah. that that that would be difficult
2:21:43
to say in regulating how how many doses you really um you know most of them come
2:21:51
and what we’ve seen in some other states are limiting it to you know the amount of milligram that is in the pen right so
2:21:58
3 milligrams being the the max the whole pen right
2:22:03
you know in one sitting you know I mean I I don’t know how they work honestly but
2:22:10
Maybe maybe I’m the only one up here that’s a little dumbfounded by the pins after we’ve been talking about all the
2:22:15
gummies and everything else. But again, I I think that if we don’t address those as well in this legislation, then what’s
2:22:22
the point of the drinks and gummies and the rest of it? I mean, you know, um the vape stores and everything else that’s
2:22:29
out there still going to be unregulated and potentially, you know, putting unsafe products in place just in a
2:22:35
smokable form rather than an adjustable form. Well, I think like I said, the age limit allows those adults to make that
2:22:42
decision versus, you know, and and preventing it from being in the hands of
2:22:47
children. And a lure would help with that. Education, right? Why I haven’t opened up a whole lot because I want to
2:22:53
make sure that my consumer understands exactly what they’re getting, you know, and and listen, you’ve been a great
2:22:59
sport with this and I appreciate you bringing something from the industry forward. Uh, but be quite honest with
2:23:04
you, you’re not the guy I’m worried about, right? you know, I look at you as a responsible person that’s trying to do
2:23:10
the best you can with a legal product. Um, you know, so I appreciate your
2:23:16
answers here today and coming forward. You’re close. You can come check the store out and I can show you on a
2:23:21
We’re going to take a field trip, Mr. Chair. No, thank you, sir. Yes, sir.
2:23:28
Senator from Calhoun. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Couple quick questions. Um, you’re located in North Carolina.
2:23:34
My store is Yes. your store is. North Carolina has no regulation. Nope.
2:23:40
Um, so you said at the beginning that you only allow 21 and older into your
2:23:46
store. So that is self-imposed. Yes, sir. And are there others in North Carolina
2:23:52
that do not um require what you’re requiring?
2:23:57
I I would have to say so. Yes. You don’t know? No. I know that a lot of the people and
2:24:03
most everyone in our association has those, you know, those guidelines already in place.
2:24:08
21 and older for sure. Um, and you said that you’re making the the
2:24:15
majority of your products that you sell. No, I said I make I make some, not majority.
2:24:20
You make some. Yeah. But then the others you you you bring in you you purchase from folks that are
2:24:27
coming and selling to you, right? a lot of them in North Carolina. So, local guys that I some I’ve even
2:24:34
grown up with. So, um at your at your location, do you only do
2:24:41
you only sell THC products? Uh we sell CBD and THC. Yes,
2:24:47
CBD and THC. I’m trying to I’m trying to figure out I mean, and again, you know, we had some
2:24:53
discussion earlier about smoke shops and vape shops here in South Carolina. I don’t know if that’s also a thing in
2:25:00
North Carolina or not and trying to decide or trying to figure out if that’s what you your
2:25:06
um establishment would be akin to here. We we would like to be separated a little or looked at a little differently
2:25:13
um just because of the extra steps that we do and and you know vapes are not
2:25:20
anywhere close to my top seller. I do I do sell them you know right
2:25:26
um do you market products in your facility in in your in your place of
2:25:31
business by different effects?
2:25:36
Yes. So, so and and that would be, you know, there’s some canabonoids that that
2:25:42
are more specific for different ailments. You know, specifically the one for sleep is probably one of the top
2:25:48
ones we see. There’s a canabonoid CBN, right? That would be Say that one more time now.
2:25:53
CBN, right? So, that is a synthetic. It’s not. It’s And that’s what I’m trying I’m trying to
2:25:59
get at that, right? Yep. Um I mean, you probably could get there. I mean, you can get to anything with heat and pressure, right? I mean,
2:26:06
you can convert almost, you know, so but that that’s one that’s probably looked
2:26:11
at not as bad as delta 8. Delta 8 just got kind of a bad rap. And you know,
2:26:17
there are some some stuff that would be left behind if you’re not if you’re not careful.
2:26:22
Redefining delta 8 as a synthetic, right? Yeah. But CBN I don’t think would be defined. I don’t look at it as that
2:26:29
way. I, you know, it’s a naturally occurring canabonoid. um just like CBD.
2:26:36
So, and it’s not going to give the most euphoric effect. It gives more of a a
2:26:43
relaxed deflect and helps people with sleep. So, I have a one to one with CBD and CBN for sleep. That’s what it’s
2:26:49
called. And I also have one with a gummy. Same thing. Now, I have CBG that would be for pain.
2:26:56
And those are going to be the top four canabonoids that you see that that move around to provide, you know, help for
2:27:03
what ailments, sleep, pain, you know, how are you ensuring
2:27:11
that what you’re selling that you’re purchasing from a manufacturer somewhere else is hemp
2:27:18
derived and not marijuana derived? Well, there’s a little bit of trust there and so I don’t have I don’t have
2:27:26
uh a lot of people that I haven’t been in business with for a long time and understand their processes um and know
2:27:33
what they go through. Um you know, certificate of authenticity doesn’t
2:27:38
necessarily differentiate between hemp derived or marijuana derived, but I have
2:27:43
that on every single product that I have. I know the testing facility know
2:27:48
that they’re not doing anything shady as well.
2:27:54
And um demand what is the demand like?
2:28:01
So it it’s uh it’s huge. I mean, you know, um, Total Wine, their highest
2:28:09
category in September was the THC category, out selling, outpacing
2:28:15
everything else. Uh, Lowe’s Food just took in like 95 different SKUs of THC
2:28:21
beverages. Um, so we’ve got about 80 different ones in in my store as well.
2:28:29
Um and uh it’s just a alcohol, you know, replacement or or or something that that
2:28:36
you know people are looking for. So, but you sell all different types of products. Yes, sir.
2:28:42
Not just um not just THC infused drinks, beverages. You you sell gummies. You
2:28:49
sell ingestables. And what is what is the most what is the most popular
2:28:55
drinks are pushing right there with with flour right now. I mean some people are just traditionalists that want to you
2:29:02
know have that ability to to smoke it. And it used to be gummies that came
2:29:07
second. Now it’s drinks. When you say flour, you’re talking about the plant material? Yes, sir. You’re selling plant material?
2:29:14
Yes, sir.
2:29:20
Okay. Thank you. I think if you came and saw it that that negative connotation that you have.
2:29:26
Well, you’re assuming I have a negative connotation. I don’t. I’m just trying to understand. Exactly.
2:29:32
Um, you know, because plant material, we we do not allow plant material to be sold
2:29:39
in South Carolina, right? North Carolina does. North Carolina does. Yes, sir.
2:29:45
Thank you. No other questions. Thank you, sir.
2:29:50
Appreciate your testimony. Um, we’re going to take a quick
2:29:57
10-minute, and I don’t mean Senate time 10-minute, I mean 10 minute break. All right. So, we’re we will be back. We
2:30:04
will crank this back up at 3:45. Thank y’all.
2:45:43
We’re going to come back in. Um, and what should have taken 10 took 16, but
Zach Sarins owner of a hemp farm, Charleston based hemp company the Carolina Dream, and a member of the South Carolina Healthy Alternatives Association and the Hemp Beverage Alliance
2:45:49
that’s all right. Uh, last potential witness. Zach, is it Sar?
2:45:56
Yes, sir. Mr. Sarin, come on up. You will raise your right hand, please.
2:46:02
Do you swear the testimony you’re about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. Thank you, sir. If you’d give us your
2:46:09
name and organization, and then you can start testifying. Absolutely. My name is Zach Sarins. I am
2:46:15
an owner of a hemp, Charleston based hemp company called the Carolina Dream. I’m also a member of the South Carolina
2:46:21
Health South Carolina Healthy Alternatives Association and the Hemp Beverage Alliance.
2:46:29
So, uh, yeah, if I may, today I am here to support the passage of H3924,
2:46:35
uh, but I’m also here to implore the legislature to work with us towards further regulation. So, my company is a
2:46:41
veteranowned and operated business. We started in 2021. We’re the only vertically integrated hemp business in
2:46:47
the state of South Carolina. Uh we love this industry. We love the value that it
2:46:53
brings to the state of South Carolina beyond just the financial impacts, but also the impacts we have in people’s
2:46:58
everyday lives, providing them with alternatives to uh deal with issues that they have in their lives, whether that
2:47:04
be right recreational or medical applications. Um but we are in agreement that this bill is a start, but we need
2:47:09
to go further with this. A 21-year-old agegate is a no-brainer, I think, for anyone in this room. Uh most are
2:47:16
probably surprised that we don’t already have a 21 age uh gate in place but we would also like to see a lot of the
2:47:21
things that have been mentioned here today. So mandatory product testing uh we would like to see lensure permitting
2:47:28
we need robust consumer protection standards around this uh and the industry is behind that. Uh you know on
2:47:35
a financial note we we are a state that values the free market. Uh South Carolina has always had a uh libertarian
2:47:42
streak in it uh and values uh financial freedom and I think it’s been very
2:47:48
interesting and very encouraging to see this industry grow and succeed as it has over the past few years in South
2:47:53
Carolina. And I might add that has all occurred via self-regulation. Right? So where we stand today, we have no
2:48:00
regulation. And though that is not ideal, the sky has not fallen. Uh we have adverse issues with this, but we
2:48:06
believe that through regulation, right? we can deal with those swiftly and easily. Uh this year, uh we may have
2:48:12
seen this earlier uh with our first presenter from the WSWA. Um but we are expected this year to see just over $500
2:48:20
million in revenue from consumable hemp products in the state of South Carolina
2:48:25
alone. So that’s $500 million that’s not going into the black market. That’s $500
2:48:31
million that’s not going into the hands of cartels. That’s $500 million not leaving the state. and it’s $500 million
2:48:39
of taxable revenue that we are not currently applying anything to beyond sales tax. It’s my opinion that we have
2:48:45
a golden opportunity here to responsibly regulate this booming industry. We need this legislation. We need to protect
2:48:52
consumers. We need to support good actors and legitimate businesses. We all know prohibition doesn’t work. Uh a ban
2:48:59
would unfortunately just force South Carolinians to find these products in the black market. But I do agree that we
2:49:05
need to work with law enforcement to make sure that they can reasonably enforce the sale of these products just
2:49:11
like they do alcohol today. Uh I would like to offer myself up as an expert on all things hemp. I do have a graduate
2:49:17
degree in hemp science from Cornell University. So I’m more than happy to answer any questions y’all may have. I
2:49:23
know that this is a very nebul nebulous topic and there’s a lot of misinformation around it in the public
2:49:29
sphere. So, uh, I would love to engage with all of you individually another time, but I would like to answer any
2:49:34
questions you have now. And again, thank you for your time,
2:49:41
Senator from York. Thank you. Um, and I appreciate you being here. Um, and we tal Well, you
2:49:49
tell me what you think about the intoxicating levels, you know, whether it’s 5 milligram, 10 milligram. Yeah,
2:49:55
it’s a tough question and this has sort of been discussed here a little bit because the way that THC, which again,
2:50:02
right, when we’re talking about the psychoactive chemical in hemp, we’re talking about THC. Uh that’s the only chemical in the plant that’s going to
2:50:08
make you feel something that you weren’t feeling before. CBD, CBG, all those other canabonoids are not having that
2:50:14
effect. It is the the THC that does that. And it is different for every person. Um now, right, you want an
2:50:22
answer on what is this going to feel like? Uh, in general, I would say that when we’re talking about a beverage and
2:50:27
we’re trying to compare it to alcohol, and that is something that we’ve been talking about a lot today, one thing of
2:50:32
note is that these products are designed to hit in a similar time frame to alcohol. So, being that they incorporate
2:50:38
fast acting canabonoids, it should hit you in about 10 or so minutes. Can you can tell me what a canabonoid
2:50:46
really what is that? Yeah, so THC is a canabonoid. So the
2:50:51
But you said that they’re you you know they’re fast acting or Exactly. So they’re slow acting ones.
2:50:57
No. So the regular THC and and you brought up this point earlier. How do we ensure that people aren’t going to feel
2:51:03
feel this kick in 90 minutes later? Right. And that is a legitimate concern in the hemp beverage space today. I’d
2:51:10
say just about 99% of the products out there are incorporating that what we call nano emulsion. And what that is is
2:51:16
it’s a fast acting form of that THC. So essentially the easy way to think about it is they just break down the molecule
2:51:22
size. So it’s very small so you absorb it faster. So in that way it hits in a more similar time frame to alcohol with
2:51:28
a faster onset and then a faster offset. So the idea being right that if you’re going to consume one of those beverages
2:51:34
you’re going to feel it in a similar time frame to alcohol but it’s also going to stop its impairment in a similar time frame to alcohol. Um, so
2:51:42
you know what about you talked about the drinks. U, are y’all doing anything other than
2:51:48
drinks? So my company uh currently produces gummies, topicals, and tinctures. Okay. Uh, but no pens. No.
2:51:56
No. Okay. Um, who produces those? Do you know? On, as far as I know, only uh outofstate
2:52:03
businesses. Uh, you know, it’s been discussed here before. the attorney general issued a ruling rate on that and that those products are not available in
2:52:10
South Carolina. Um and so when it comes to the do you
2:52:16
agree that the only way to have the euphoric effect or the intoxicating
2:52:22
uh effect is through consumption or or smoking?
2:52:28
So do the creams, the topical creams, all that stuff, do they give any level of intoxicity? You would have to be applying a very
2:52:35
very large amount of the cream to feel anything through a topical application. Okay. So there’s no there’s no real risk
2:52:41
that under normal circumstances anybody’s going to get high off the cream. No. I guess what I’m So most
2:52:48
people that use it for pain purposes, cream wise, you’re not worried about them get behind the wheel of a car.
2:52:54
No. Okay. Um, and so this again was a foreign I don’t I don’t frequent bars. I
2:53:00
don’t, you know, I mean I go out to eat with my family, but I got 11 and seven year olds. So even that the
2:53:07
Mexican joints the easiest place to get in, get out and everybody’s happy. But um, but you know, I didn’t never dreamed
2:53:13
that I’d see these types of products at a at a you know, regular restaurant. Um,
2:53:19
so most people what what’s the consumption generally like? I mean, are people sitting at the bar drinking four
2:53:25
or five of these drinks or what’s what’s what’s you know what’s typical
2:53:30
consumption? Yeah, in in my experience and and again just my opinion in my experience uh
2:53:35
typically at an on premise location people are probably consuming one or two of these beverages in an evening. Um I
2:53:43
find that right because it’s a nent space and people are still exploring it they’re they’re wary of going too far
2:53:50
right and having too many of these these products. Um so I would and I think on
2:53:56
another angle from this you have to understand from a business perspective right if you’re if you’re a if you own a bar right you make money on the time
2:54:02
that somebody is in that chair. So it’s in on pre for on premise businesses it’s in their best interest to have a lower a
2:54:09
lower threshold. They don’t want people drinking one drink and then falling asleep in the bar stool. That’s not good for their business. So, they want people
2:54:15
to be able to consume one or two or three of these and then, you know, carry about their day, go out to dinner, go
2:54:20
home, what have you. Would you have any objection to the gummies? Uh, are the gummies generally a
2:54:27
higher content or not necessarily? So, my company only produces lowd dose products. So, none of
2:54:34
our gummies are are high dose. What do you consider low dos? Um, I personally consider low dose, and I see
2:54:40
this in the space, anything below about 10 or 15 milligrams per serving.
2:54:47
Okay. Um, so you don’t sell a gummy that’s 50 milligrams. Oh, absolutely not. No.
2:54:52
And you don’t sell a drink that’s 50 milligrams? No. No, sir. All of our products are grandma approved. Okay. Gotcha. Um a and uh do you feel
2:55:00
relatively comfortable that your packaging uh is not predatory in nature to any
2:55:07
minors? My company’s packaging is absolutely not. I am uh daily confronted with
2:55:13
concerns around that from other brands and bad actors. I would say for the most part South Carolina brands uh do not
2:55:20
appeal to children. Mostly what we are seeing are these quote unquote gas station products that are coming from
2:55:26
out of state. Those are the ones that are dressing themselves up like Skittles or Oreos or Doritos.
2:55:32
Well, I appreciate the the the way that you’ve gone about this. Um, and you know, as far as would you have an
2:55:39
objection, say it’s, you know, have a in the retail stores or wherever have a
2:55:44
designated area by which just like beer, you know, you got to beer’s got to be in
2:55:50
a very conspicuous location. Um, beer or wine or anything else. In fact, I think
2:55:56
some states you have to go in a closed uh area to even obtain beer, you know,
2:56:01
like beer cooler, beer cave, whatever they call them. If if we had a requirement um that your products had to
2:56:08
be in some designated area, even if it’s not behind closed doors, but you know,
2:56:14
some designated area, would you have any objection to that? Not only would we not have an objection,
2:56:19
we would support that. Okay. Thank you, sir. Yeah.
2:56:30
Mr. Sarrens, I’m gonna let me ask. You have a what? From Cornell.
2:56:35
A graduate degree. A graduate degree. All right. So, you have a master’s in
2:56:40
CBD in uh hemp farming and business. Hemp farming. Okay. I mean, never knew
2:56:46
- Didn’t know it was a thing. Um one of the few universities that offers it. your um
2:56:54
Mr. Mitchell testified before you and he said that he thought five milligrams was the equivalent of drinking a Coors
2:57:00
Light. I’m curious, do you have a little more knowledge? I’m not asking you to argue
2:57:06
with him per se, but would you concur in that that five milligrams is like drinking a Coors Light?
2:57:13
In general, I would say 5 milligrams about two and a half to five milligrams is consistent with what most people
2:57:20
would describe off of one light beer. Yes. Can we agree that and and we’re going to
2:57:27
get in the weeds because I’m just so curious about this. Can you agree with me that someone typically feels nothing
2:57:34
after one 12 ounce scores light?
2:57:39
Sometimes. Yes, I can. A 180 lb male is not going to feel anything
2:57:46
typically over a 30-minute period drinking one Coors light. Would they would that same 180 pound male feel
2:57:55
something drinking a five mill 12 ounce 5 milligrams over 30 minutes? I would say it’s just as likely that
2:58:01
they feel something as they would with a coarse light.
2:58:08
a brand new user, 180 pound male, brand new user. Yes.
2:58:13
All right. So, for you, you do you truly believe it’s the equivalent of a beer? All
2:58:20
right. Um, do you have an opinion? I mean, you’ve heard us talk about all the other things on premises, off- premises.
2:58:27
Do you think that or let me ask you this as someone who who creates this, do you think the there’s a fair cut off at 10,
2:58:35
15, 20? what where should we regulate this? Great question. Um, so one thing I would
2:58:42
say is that I do think that there should be a difference if we’re talking about potency caps with on premise versus off-
2:58:48
premise. Um, in the same way that you can go to a liquor store and buy a
2:58:53
handle of vodka and go home and drink the whole thing if you want, but you can’t go to a bar and buy a handle of vodka and drink the whole thing at the
2:58:59
bar. So I think in that same logic we should have a lower threshold for on
2:59:04
premise consumption of these beverages and I know that in the industry and in the space very often that on premise
2:59:11
threshold gets talked about between 5 and 10 milligrams per serving. uh that right is a way for people to feel that
2:59:18
they are covering their bases in terms of liability but also right you wouldn’t uh you you wouldn’t serve uh 90 proof
2:59:25
liquor at a bar to a client as a customer as much as they want it so I would say
2:59:30
there’s there’s a difference between on- premise and off-remise um but then I would also say that in terms of milligramage caps I think the main
2:59:37
distinction is sort of high dose versus low dose and maybe a helpful way of conceiving this for y’all could be that
2:59:42
if you imagine uh your standard marijuana cigarette, right? A joint as
2:59:48
they call it on the streets. That single uh package can contain up to 300 mg of
2:59:56
THC. When we’re talking about a, you know, even a six-pack of cans of a 5
3:00:03
milligram, that’s only that’s a tenth. That’s 30 milligrams total in that packaging. So, it’s far less far more
3:00:09
low dose. And I think if we’re going to look at uh highdose edibles so to speak that are approaching anywhere near that
3:00:16
range then there is a real argument to be made that they should be in retail channels like liquor stores or
3:00:21
dispensaries or something that has an extra layer of uh you know liability coverage and uh uh sort of a barrier to
3:00:28
entry in the same way that you can’t walk into a Harris ter in South Carolina and buy liquor but you can buy beer and
3:00:33
wine. I think that milligramage cap needs to be discussed to find a way to
3:00:39
regulate this responsibly. Anybody else? Yes, sir.
3:00:44
Senator from Greenville. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thinking back to the
3:00:50
displays that Chief Keiel had in front of him. I think one was a 50 milligram, one was a 60.
3:00:58
Can you give an opinion as to what would be the condition of someone who was a
3:01:04
casual user or a new user if they consumed 50 plus milligrams in one
3:01:10
setting? Just so I understand the question correctly. You’re saying if a a new consumer, someone who’s never consumed
3:01:16
before, a very infrequent consumer, if they were to consume 50 milligrams of THC, 50 plus milligrams in one in a
3:01:23
relatively short time frame. Yeah. I mean it again and this goes with the chairman the question the chairman asked if there’s a
3:01:28
12 ounce can of liquid most people are going to consume the 12
3:01:33
ounces. Yeah. So I mean something you see interesting point something you see in states where they have a dispensary system and it’s regulated and they serve
3:01:40
higher dose beverages. Um you will see 100 milligram cans but they have what’s called an exo lid. And so it’s a
3:01:45
realable lid. So the idea is that you can put 10 servings in the can with the explicit instructions. Hey, have
3:01:51
one/10enth of a can and slide the lid back closed and then put it in storage. Now, I completely agree with you.
3:01:57
Growing up drinking sodas, a can is a serving size. That’s how people look at it. Once you crack the can, you’re going to finish the can. Um, so yeah, I
3:02:04
absolutely think that the format does matter and I think that if you’re
3:02:10
talking about high potency, high dose products, uh, it should be in a more secure format. Absolutely. Yeah. Would
3:02:16
you agree that 50 milligrams is a high dose? Yeah, I I I think anyone would be
3:02:22
hardressed to tell you that 50 milligrams or above is not a high dose. And can can you give an opinion as to
3:02:28
the to the condition of a person who was a casual user or a new user who consumed
3:02:33
50 milligrams at in short order? Yeah. I mean, I think that they, you
3:02:38
know, depending on if they were cognizant of the consumption and they were doing this, you know, of course, intentionally and to feel something. I
3:02:45
think that they would have uh a potentially an adverse reaction, not guaranteed. I don’t think it’d be the type of situation where they would feel
3:02:50
that they needed to go to a hospital or anything like that. I think a you know simple nap would probably uh handle that
3:02:57
sufficiently. Um but it’s not the type of thing that you would want to uh you know accidentally consume the entire
3:03:04
amount of. And if someone who was a new or casual user and didn’t have tolerance for this,
3:03:11
would that affect their ability to drive? Would their ability to drive be materially and appreciably impaired if
3:03:16
they had consumed 50 milligrams? I I in my opinion I would speculate so
3:03:21
there is it’s interesting there’s very little good uh research on how cannabis
3:03:29
consumption impairs driving. Now we all know of course that if in the scenario you’re describing somebody were to take
3:03:35
far too much and they’re not familiar with the feeling of it that yes it would absolutely impair their driving. Where
3:03:41
it gets tricky is that when people consume more frequently and get more comfortable, and this is true with alcohol too, right? That their ability
3:03:48
to operate safely operate a uh a vehicle uh goes up because of that supposed
3:03:55
tolerance. But what I would say is that as it regards uh you know operating
3:04:01
heavy machinery um you wouldn’t want to be inebriated on anything while you’re
3:04:09
doing that. And so for that reason, I would say a newcomer probably would not be advisable to drive a vehicle on a 50
3:04:17
milligram of THC. Oh, and if I may real quick, one other
3:04:23
thing of note, uh, because I know this came up earlier, um, blood testing as it regards, uh, THC impairment, there are,
3:04:31
uh, you know, obviously that is one way to determine this. Part of the problem there is the concentration of THC in the
3:04:37
blood. again with that tolerance varies from person to person. Uh but there there are new solutions that I would
3:04:42
implore SLED to look into like mouth swaps that can tell you if someone has consumed THC recently and thus is
3:04:48
impaired. Senator from Calhoun. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I think I
3:04:54
understand now why there will be additional hearings. Um
3:05:01
so I again I I appreciate that the questions in the comments. I’m trying to get my mind wrapped around these these
3:05:08
threshold limits, right? And and so, you know, we were given a handout about the Kentucky model.
3:05:14
Are you familiar with it? Yes. Very. So, Kentucky apparently is 5 milligrams per serving, right?
3:05:20
Correct. Do they limit the servings? Not to my knowledge. No. So, a can, a 12 ounce can, who dictates
3:05:29
what a serving is? typically right now the business or the manufacturer
3:05:35
and and that’s what I’m trying to get at like is it more important that we focus on milligrams or is it more more
3:05:41
important that we focus on servings? That’s a good question. Um I think it’s equally important.
3:05:48
I think both both need to be considered. Um, and I think another thing to be considered here, right, like with ABV,
3:05:54
um, there’s a direct correlation there where you the low, you know, the higher the milligramage potentially, you know,
3:06:01
you don’t want an unlimited number of servings. Correct. So, I mean, you could, you
3:06:06
could go in and buy a can and if a can I don’t know what a
3:06:12
beer what is a beer that’s typically one serving. Yeah. 12 ounce beer usually about 4%
3:06:18
alcohol. Yeah. I mean, you look on a Coke can, it’s one serving, right?
3:06:23
And so that would be limited in Kentucky to 5 milligrams. Correct.
3:06:30
But there’s other products that are sold in Kentucky that have multiple servings
3:06:37
and not really sure how they come up with the designation of that being a serving or two servings or three
3:06:42
servings. Right. Yes. Okay. So,
3:06:47
in in states where marijuana is legal, straight marijuana, it’s my
3:06:53
understanding that they actually go with a milligram limit in some places on how
3:06:59
many milligrams you can purchase at a particular time.
3:07:04
It’s Yeah, it’s typically a higher quantity uh usually like in in ounces,
3:07:09
but yes. Right. Yeah, there there’s a limit to in in every state with a recreational program, there’s a limit to how much you can buy in one day.
3:07:17
Is that something that we should consider? In my honest opinion, I think that a lot of blue states that uh led the charge on
3:07:24
recreational and medical cannabis made huge mistakes and hamstrung their states
3:07:31
business’s ability to exist and didn’t do consumers any favors with that uh
3:07:37
overly ownorous regulation. I think that in uh the case of lowd dose hemp
3:07:44
products, it makes much more sense to treat it like alcohol in the way that you regulate it. It doesn’t require you
3:07:49
setting up an entirely new framework to regulate this. You have the system already in place. Now, if we’re talking
3:07:55
about, right, like very high dose products like you’re talking about in legal states, um you know, that may
3:08:03
warrant a enforcement division that can has the capabilities to do that. If I want to go buy a case of Jack Daniels, I
3:08:09
can go buy a case of Jack Daniels. Or if I want to go buy 20 cases of beer, I can go buy 20 cases of beer. Is Is that what
3:08:16
you’re suggesting here? That’s the way that we should approach it. It’s not. And so again, you know, to me, I’m just
3:08:24
trying to figure out, are we really searching for a potency slash threshold of
3:08:31
THC by the milligram that we don’t want to provide for sale
3:08:38
or should we not go about that process? Is that going to be
3:08:44
too cumbersome? And I I think we’re comfortable I’m certainly comfortable with saying that low dosage for on-site
3:08:51
on premise consumption or say in gas stations higher potency perhaps at you
3:08:59
know a liquor store currently. But I don’t even know what that is. I don’t even know what that would look like. I
3:09:05
mean what are what are we saying? 100 milligrams. Is it 200 milligrams? like at what point are we getting out of
3:09:14
the realm of what’s out there? Yeah. No, I mean that is a great question and this is something that I
3:09:20
can tell you uh trade groups and industry stakeholders are talking about every day about how to approach this in
3:09:25
the most logical and responsible way. Um, I don’t see very many products in
3:09:30
the space today that contain, and I’m talking about beverages here specifically, or gummies for that
3:09:36
matter, that contain more than usually about 300 maybe 350 milligrams total in
3:09:41
the package. Anything beyond bottle and and help me just scale that in my mind when you say package.
3:09:46
So, yeah, I’m thinking of a bottle like a bottle of uh, you know, a 750ml bottle equivalent to a spirit,
3:09:52
right? And I don’t even know how many servings that is, but you’re saying there’s 300 milligrams of THC in that
3:09:58
bottle. That is the highest that I’ve seen. Um, and that right breaks down to typically
3:10:03
around some somewhere around 10 milligrams per serving per shot. You would say 2 ounces
3:10:10
and that can be spaced out as the consumer decides to space them out. Most people that consume those products do not consume the entire uh large
3:10:18
format bottle all at once. But that’s where I think we get ourselves in trouble when we start talking about most people are typical, you know, because
3:10:25
there’s always going to be outliers, of course, right? And so, you know, I don’t I don’t
3:10:30
to me that shouldn’t necessarily even matter. It it’s what are we going to say is legal and what are we going to say is
3:10:37
not legal. And you know, somebody that wants to go buy that 300 mgram, 750,
3:10:44
what you know, that that bottle 300 milligrams of THC and they’re going to consume that over the course of the next
3:10:51
two months. That’s up to them. Am I wrong in looking
3:10:56
at looking at it from that perspective or No, not at all. I mean, I do genuinely think, especially with the hemp beverage
3:11:02
space, the analoges to alcohol are numerous. uh the way that we regulate alcohol, whether it’s spirits, beer,
3:11:09
wine, what have you. It it does make a lot of sense for how we could approach the hemp beverage space as well.
3:11:15
So, you’re saying then there should not be any regulation or should we approach
3:11:21
it that anything over a certain milligram has to be sold in a liquor more more confined?
3:11:29
I think that would be responsible personally. Yeah. Right. I think that Yeah. in the same way but not limit but not limit them on what
3:11:35
they sell from that point moving up. Yes, if I understand the question
3:11:41
correctly. Yes, I think 50 milligrams. Yeah. And not that’s not a good one. 20 milligrams has to 20 milligrams and
3:11:48
above has to be sold in a liquor store. But then there there would be no cap on
3:11:53
what those what they could sell. There would be no milligram cap. I can tell you that no
3:11:59
responsible brand in this industry would have any issue with you putting an upper limit cap on that
3:12:06
and what is that though that is upper limit cap I think that’s where you know stakeholders need to be involved and I
3:12:11
don’t want to speak on behalf of an entire industry but I can say from my perspective in my opinion the real bad actor
3:12:17
what are other states doing then yeah so as far as I know I don’t know of any state that has an upper limit
3:12:22
milligramage cap they just it’s wide open uh not on per serving basis, but on the
3:12:30
unit basis it can be right. So if you’re if you’re looking at a, you know, max 5
3:12:37
milligrams per serving, you can only fit a, you know, maybe 10 15 servings in a
3:12:43
bottle. And so that would be the upper limit of what you would be able to fit into a single product. What is the upper limit then on
3:12:48
servings? So, um, as far as I know, no states have put that or it varies state
3:12:54
by state and that no state has a consistent standard for what a ser how many servings are allowed to be in a single unit.
3:13:02
In my opinion, I think that it right where the market is today uh sort of
3:13:09
makes some sense or where most of the market is today sort of makes sense around that. Right. the how are we what are we even supposed to
3:13:14
go off of then in terms of a milligramage cap on per serving cap? Yes. Upper upper
3:13:21
cap. Yeah. I mean I think that’s why it’s really important to to sit down with the stakeholders with it people in the
3:13:28
industry with Yeah. I mean, I would say without being too committal, I would say um yeah, I mean, any about 500 or so
3:13:36
milligrams per uh container is more than enough for anybody that is looking to
3:13:43
responsibly consume lowd dose products. And then in conjunction with that, that
3:13:50
500 milligrams, how many servings would that be? Right. So that and that would have to
3:13:56
tie into the the potency cap which right again what I would suggest if we were looking at this on a uh you know higher
3:14:03
end threshold I would say maybe 50 to 100 milligrams per serving would be the max that’s what I was getting at.
3:14:09
Yeah. Yeah. No absolutely. Thank you. Senator from York.
3:14:15
So tell is there an expiration to these products? Yes. So most of the products that you
3:14:22
see in the space today have a one-year shelf life. The uh interesting thing about it is that you can typically
3:14:27
retest these products uh after a year out and then they gain another year of uh shelf stability.
3:14:34
Um and uh just briefly, I mean, I’m sure you agree to this, but there’s no need
3:14:40
for anyone to drive around with an open container of your product, is there? No, absolutely not.
3:14:45
That’s it. No, I mean I Senator from Greenville. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’m sorry. You
3:14:50
you mentioned about the mouth swab because we had some questions about the you know what you do something similar
3:14:57
to a a breathalyzer or data master a breath test. So just there are there
3:15:05
there are mechanisms because you referenced this to test
3:15:11
marijuana THC consumption by by a so what my understanding is that it can
3:15:17
show you the presence of THC on epithelial cheek cells from a from a
3:15:24
swab. It can’t tell you how impaired the person is. And so that and I think that’s right what what we’re talking
3:15:29
about a lot when we’re talking about addressing issues on the road is we do not want people actively consuming any
3:15:34
psychoactive substance while they’re operating a vehicle or shortly before. So the swab enables you to do is say
3:15:40
this person has recently consumed THC. Do you have a background in this or you just telling us what you
3:15:45
No. No sir. Okay. So so you don’t know if it if it just the presence or non-presence not
3:15:51
when it was consumed or how much was consumed? My understanding is that and and again that I believe this technology
3:15:57
is still being in it’s in development but my understanding is that it can show you that uh THC has been consumed in a
3:16:04
recent window of about two hours. Thank you
3:16:12
Sarren. Appreciate you coming to testify today. You that that’s actually been very valuable. We
3:16:18
appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for your time. Anyone else who
3:16:24
made it through the 15 minute break. Want to get up and say something.
3:16:29
All right. Um, we will we will have another meeting. Uh, I think we want I
3:16:35
know we want to hear from from some of the experts from SLED on this and and and so certainly if you want or you have
3:16:44
uh from an industry standpoint have an expert that you would like to bring to your next round, please next round’s the
3:16:51
time to do it. Uh we will let you all know when that is as soon as we can. Do we have a motion to adjurnn?
3:16:56
So moved. Second. All those in favor say I. Thank y’all.
